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Rear mount radiators and other rule changes

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Tim Fensom
posted Jul 11, 2013 at 6:59 PM

Rear Mount Radiators are looking at being accepted on challenge class vechicles from the Rotorua comp onwards,
Now is the time for submissions from competitors on if this is a rule change that you can see benefiting the sport.....

And if there are any other rules that need a bit of a clean up, lets hear you suggestions............

Cheers
[Modified by: Tim Fensom on 13 July 2013 21:05:46 ]

Arron Eades
posted Jul 11, 2013 at 7:56 PM

Rear mount Radiators

They should be allowed. Here is my logic.

I assume that the original reason they had to be "within the confines of the engine bay" is to maintain the OEM look of the vehicles.
Over the years rules have evolved. We allowed single cab and tray back conversions because it just made plain practical and financial sense. Now days (regarding appearance) rear of the b pillar anything goes.
How does having a radiator on the back detract any further from the OEM look? How does having a radiator on the back make the sport any less doable for Joe Average? Does it lessen the likely hood of sponsors? No.
Does it make the sport cheaper and more enjoyable? I say yes, less time washing out blocked radiators, less expense replacing radiators and owning/carrying a spare to events.
Challenge class was and is for the "extreme" road legal vehicles, with a factory appearance. "suspension mods are unrestricted" "engine and transmission mods are unrestricted"
In my mind any road legal vehicle that looks like a mass production 4wd should be accepted in challenge class.

While your asking about other rules the "same brand body and chassis" rule is completely unreasonable.
What does it achieve?
How is a 70 series body on an 80 series chassis or a chopped Terrano body on a Safari chassis or a Chopped surf on Landcruiser diffs with Pajero control arms or a Hilux body and chassis on Safari axles or a Safari Cab that has had a roof drop and a single cab conversion or a Safari that has had a single cab conversion and the body moved back 200mm differ from a Hilux on a Safari chassis? They don't. And currently all those trucks bar the last are accepted.
Yes, someone might put a Suzuki body on a Safari chassis. Who cares? What major advantage will it be over any of the other mentioned configurations?

These are rules for the sake of having rules. So long as it has a WOF, meets comp safety rules and Joe Public can look and go "oh that's a modified Terrano" (or Hilux or Safari or 80 etc etc) then it should be allowed in challenge class.

For those of you thinking "he just wants these rules changed to suit his current build. Yes. These rules do directly affect me now, but I argued against both of these rules long before they affected me and a search of these forums would prove as much.
[Modified by: Arron Eades on July 11, 2013 10:47 PM]

[Modified by: Arron Eades on July 11, 2013 10:49 PM]

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 11, 2013 at 10:17 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Good points there Arron, cant really fault what your saying.

stephen reed
posted Jul 12, 2013 at 7:48 PM

Rear mount Radiators

most of you know my thoughts already ,i have been lobbing for this for years for the same reasons as aaron has stated ,i have a personal reason as im sick of over heating trucks ,thats all .i use my truck for lots of club runs also ,tracks like Thompsons,Dome valley ,Stadia etc etc and without exception we come out with the needle in the red . well im over it and have now rear mounted the radiator and wish i had done it years ago .the only real advantage is no more cooked motors ,yes it is still compleatly road legal .i dont really care if i have to race in modified class to me its the comp not what class .as a side note Tony and i are going to organise a 3 day comp over easter next year and we are going to allow rear mounted radiators as a way of boosting numbers in challenge class and make it easier for SI trucks ...Steve

Bob Uttridge
posted Jul 12, 2013 at 8:16 PM

Rear mount Radiators

As Steve has stated, competitors will still have a class to run in,maybe the outlaw or modified becomes the premier class.
Some do not wish to rear mount their radiator for a variety of reasons, room, what there use for etc.basically don't need too.
Is it really that big of deal ?
This riule was added by 4x4 challenges well before I started winch events, what was the reason. ??

On a final note, we have rear mount trans cooler, power steer cooler and just about anything else you can mount.
Some have cracked the nut on the heating issue, should they be penalised IF this proves to be an advantage.

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 12, 2013 at 8:40 PM

Rear mount Radiators

So if theres a enough feed back on the changes people want, there will be a challenges meeting and it will be put to a vote.

So heres some of the suggestions..........

Rear mounted radiators for challenge class.
Mixed Chassis and bodys for challenge class
Lift the tire size limit to 37" - all classes
Combine club class and modified into one class

stephen reed
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 5:55 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Hi Tim my vote is yes to 3of them ...Steve,Just had a re think on the combining modified/club class and am not sure ,quite a few of the modified class are ex challenge class who no longer want or can keep their trucks road legal or as im myself dont comply with the current rules ,now how is it going to promote the sport and encourage new people if they have to race against these types of trucks and seasoned teams ,you could end up with situaition of say Aaron smythe and even yourself Tim could race in modified if you didnt have time to road legal your truck ,I for one cant see guys turning up comp after comp just to get their asses kicked ,maybe another way is leave the classes but just change the tyre size in club class to a max of 33" that way it gives the new guy entering the sport at least as fighting chance ,after all that was why club class was originally started ,if a team wants to run 35" its their choice either change tyres or run in modified at least its up to them..
Steve
[Modified by: stephen reed on July 13, 2013 09:29 PM]

Glen Raymond
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 6:57 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Hi Tim why not use South Island rules for classes and they use our for safety rules seems a fair trade. It might move things closer together and a bit easier. Glen

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 7:14 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Another rule that needs looking at is in modified class...
25.2 The entire body shell must be OEM forward of and including the ‘B’ pillar.

Yet Club class doesnt have this clause,
I think it will be dropped when the two classes are merged...

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 7:25 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Quote Glen Raymond:
Hi Tim why not use South Island rules for classes and they use our for safety rules seems a fair trade. It might move things closer together and a bit easier. Glen

If we change to rear mount radiators in challenge, and they adopt 6 point cages in all classes, There shouldnt be too many differences????

If there is, list them up so that they can be sorted out???

In say that, no north island truck has been turned away from a comp in the south, and vice versa for the north, because of the differences in the rules....

It was talked about at the 4x4 challenges agm that we will leave change class alone apart from rear mounted radiators.
And to merge club and modified into one and call it outlaw class.

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 9:04 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Also had requests for fiddle brakes to be allowed in modified class

stephen reed
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 9:32 PM

Also had requests for fiddle brakes to be allowed in modified class.

And next will be Razors and quads then trails trucks ,I say NO .Steve

Tony Gimblett
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 9:35 PM

While we at it ....
How about tyre size all very well going bigger but even now theres a variety of wider 14.5 & 15" wide in 35"?.current rule is max 13.5
rule 32.1 Vehicles may be fitted with any number of driving lights, in addition to the standard headlights.
does it need factory headlights and if it does do they need to work? or can they just be decoration to keep officials happy?
must it have windscreen?
Log book are they really necessary?

[Modified by: Tony Gimblett on July 13, 2013 09:36 PM]

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 10:05 PM

Rear mount Radiators

Quote stephen reed:
Hi Tim my vote is yes to 3of them ...Steve,Just had a re think on the combining modified/club class and am not sure ,quite a few of the modified class are ex challenge class who no longer want or can keep their trucks road legal or as im myself dont comply with the current rules ,now how is it going to promote the sport and encourage new people if they have to race against these types of trucks and seasoned teams ,you could end up with situaition of say Aaron smythe and even yourself Tim could race in modified if you didnt have time to road legal your truck ,I for one cant see guys turning up comp after comp just to get their asses kicked ,maybe another way is leave the classes but just change the tyre size in club class to a max of 33" that way it gives the new guy entering the sport at least as fighting chance ,after all that was why club class was originally started ,if a team wants to run 35" its their choice either change tyres or run in modified at least its up to them..
Steve
[Modified by: stephen reed on July 13, 2013 09:29 PM]

Wont you be back in challenge if the rear mounts come in???

I dont really see it being a problem with people having there asses kicked if they have to race with the bigger teams, we all started off like that and most of us are still racing?
Wasnt there also issues with the better teams in club class dominating the events but unable to move up to challenge cause they were not road legal, hence the modified class.
Whats the point of racing if you cant measure youself against the teams your trying to beat.
Also giving people all these options in the past hasnt really seemed to make the sport much stronger, look back 5 years ago when there was only one class and you had events with 25+ trucks attending.

Possibly the fact that thru no ones fault we have lost access to some of the bigger venues that used to hold the more iconic comps is a bigger problem than all the rule and class changes.

Theres been a lot of phone calls going on about comps for next year, so hopefully some will pan out in the near future

Tim Fensom
posted Jul 13, 2013 at 10:08 PM
Quote stephen reed:
Also had requests for fiddle brakes to be allowed in modified class.

And next will be Razors and quads then trails trucks ,I say NO .Steve

Yeah, think the Razors would have there own class........

Trials trucks should be allowed in modified class as long as they comply with the rules.(But i dont think we have to worry about a onslaught of cowper trucks just yet)

Cheers

Arron Eades
posted Jul 14, 2013 at 1:05 AM

Yes to the first three. (including wider tyre rule as well I guess)

No to Combining classes.
I think the three classes are well justified.
Club: entry level trucks/teams. Don't have to be road legal.
Challenge: any road legal, heavily modified, OEM recognisable trucks.
Mod. Buggys/serious bush trucks.
Though from an event organisers point of view more classes equals more work. I'm not 100% sure about this rule.

No to fiddle brakes.
Allowing them does nothing to make the sport cheaper or more accessible. If a trials truck wants to enter sweet, just lock out the fiddles. Most trials trucks will be more agile than most winch trucks anyway.
If you allow them, it's just one more mod that you have to do to be competitive (we know there is a MASSIVE difference in a how a truck with fiddles turns compared to without). If Mod and Club stay separate, and challenge was changed to be "any readily recognisable road legal truck", then maybe fiddles would be ok in Mod only. But I still don't see the need for them.

Arron Eades
posted Jul 14, 2013 at 1:10 AM
Quote Tony Gimblett:
While we at it ....
How about tyre size all very well going bigger but even now theres a variety of wider 14.5 & 15" wide in 35"?.current rule is max 13.5
rule 32.1 Vehicles may be fitted with any number of driving lights, in addition to the standard headlights.
does it need factory headlights and if it does do they need to work? or can they just be decoration to keep officials happy?
must it have windscreen?
Log book are they really necessary?

Good point on the tyres.

What class(es) are you talking about Tony?
Challenge needs functioning lights windscreen etc to be road legal.
I can't see why club or mod would need either.

Tony Gimblett
posted Jul 14, 2013 at 8:55 AM

rule 32.1 is listed for all classes
Reason I ask i got a habit of taking out headlights.......

Warren Hill
posted Jul 14, 2013 at 10:02 AM

I agree with the 1st 3 rule change suggestions.
Radiators mounted on the back are the best way to keep the engine happy and keep the drivers pushing the limits.
Any way to increase the life of an engine, especially in a more budget conscious truck, is a step in the right direction towards growing the sport.
Is there much support for a change to 37" tyres? Personally I think it'd be a good change, although I think Nz winch trucks will end up like Oz winch trucks where 3 out of 4 trucks are running maxxis Treps.
Hopefully if there is more demand for these tyres the price will come down a bit.

stephen reed
posted Jul 14, 2013 at 1:58 PM

Hi Tim ,Yep if and when the radiator rule changes i will be back in challenge class ,but as i said before im not stressed either way ,the different classes doesnt really matter to me ,i just want to get out thyere and have some fun,,,Steve

Bob Uttridge
posted Jul 14, 2013 at 5:09 PM

if you want to make your club class the entry level, tyre size should be as Southisland rule 33 and under.

do we really need registered trucks in the challenge class, insured yes, wof yes .
but $600 for a coal burner ute Rego ?..

saftey and how the event is run , should be a key issue.
track marking should become a standard practice, every one use the same colors, pegs if possible.

there is a big gap between entry level and the next stage.

37 inch tire, ok
the rule of 36.5 was ok adapted as Simex supported a few events in the early days.
If Maxxis wish to invest in our sport let them.
[Modified by: Bob Uttridge on July 14, 2013 08:20 PM]

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