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To add to my ore comment about roll cages.

I know we have 4 sets of rules to comply to, so you would think it would be easy. The reality is that all these rules have their high/low points, their sensible/stupid points, and none have really thought much about exo cages.

Now I have allready built my cage to one of these specs, so a future rule change will be of no advantage to me, but it would seem that rollcage rules could be simplified. Could it be as easy as a scrutineer saying "thats a dumb combination of those rules" or "that makes sence, its fine"? I guess not, we have to have rules. But having to sandwich panel steel between to 4mm plates seems stupid.

I'm not trying to cause shit or have a dig at anyone, so please don't take it that way.

If we want new blood and we want safe cages, then lets make it as easy as possible.

Arron.

You must comply with one of the rules. Not all, and not a bit of this and a bit of that. Most are building to ORANZ with a main hoop to comply with CCDA.
The NZFWDA rules are th least suitable as it is designed for low speed repetitive rollovers not hig speed impact which is what our cages are for. Different sport and so different requirements.
It is possible to make a cage that complies with MANZ, ORANZ and CCDA but that will not satisfy NZFWDA so the direction you should go is pretty obvious.
I've built an exo cage that coplies with ORANZ and I'm pretty certain CCDA. The only reason it doesn't comply with MANZ is to do with their crumple zone rules ie back stays inside the centreline of rear axle. The easiest option for us would be to get MANZ to have rule for full chassis vehicles, but they don't and won't make one.

I agree that you must comply with one set of the rules, but i disagree with you comments about the NZFWDA cages, any sunday on 4x4 extreme(when its on) you would see at least one roll over at high speed event with multiple end overs, roll overs ect
NZFWDA rules are the easiest to comply with and are probally more suited to people starting out to fit because 4wd clubs will let them run in their events fun rallys ect ect....
Also remember that not everyone who races winch challenge is interested in offroad racing.
I have also read comments on O.R.E. about the up coming Norwest comp where they have been setting the stages to be tighter
and more technical to bring the speeds down.Also NZFWDA works with LVVTA to make sure we can have cages in our road registered vechicles (and if they didnt we would probally be screwed unless we had a motosport auth card)
There are 4 different styles which cover pretty much every avenue ,so as long as you pick one that passes scrutineering theres really only one person who has to be happy with it

Your certifier is the one that has to be happy with the cage. ORANZ have a road legal class now so that solves another problem.

When I say NZFWDA cages don't suit, I'm not saying they aren't strong enough, far from it, they are too strong. So that causes other problems. Also they are too heavy. But they are designed so that someone with no experience can build a badly designed cage that will still work. ie overkill. But that is needed when rally trucks fall over so much. This isn't a negative coment, it's just that trails and winch comps are now very diferent sports. ie winch trucks are getting longer for high speed stability and hill climbing while trails trucks are now square for side stabilty and tight turning.
Tightening tracks to bring speeds down means we'll just be going as fast as we did a couple of years ago, for a while! It isa speed sport so we have to live with and deal with it.

But as you say, only one person needs to be happy (well 2 in our case).

The general specs for all the 4 types of cages are pretty much the same (excluding pipe sizes and types of pipe) and cages are checked before a rally to conform with the regs(yes they do have some)There is no slap it togeather she"ll be right.As for pipe size yes they are bigger but who cares about a few extra kgs when its you life on the line?

This will sound stupid, but I agree with both of you. Mostly.

Im not asking which rules are better (allready built my cage). What I'm saying is lets clear up some rules, specifically with regaurd to exo's. I know there are people out there who want to get going and build one, but they are scared to start as there are some specifics missing when it comes to exo's. They are scared (like me) that they will have to build their cage twice, or worse, turn up to an event and be sent away (at considerable expense)

Here is what I wrote on ORE so you all follow me.

...As far as the exo thing goes, yes, you can build to oranz (or ccda or nzfwda). Even then the rules have been adapted to suit an exo rather than designed with exo's in mind. For example, the rules on how you should mount the front hoop to the chassis seem to be quite vauge. Clearly one is not going to sandwich this hoop to the body (pipes on the outside of the cab, where would you sandwich?) also you cant have one one bend in that leg (as per ccda) and weld it to the chassis. Something will be required to fill the gap between the bottom of your straight leg and the 300-400mm to your chassis rail. The rules on what should fill this gap do not really exist, but you can use bits of rules to deduce what would be appropriate. I have been told that mounting to a rock slider is frowned upon, so that option is out (if you are doing your best to please all)

See, I'm not trying to be a bastard. I'm just pointing out an area of the rules that needs some attention/clearification.
(but please dont clear em up just yet though as I have allready built mine)

Arron.
027 278 2556.

One things needs to be very clear. With very high powered trucks, you can NOT slow them down. If the driver is an idiot then they can go balistically fast and then the cage needs to be suited to a high speed impact and not a low speed roll over. Trails truck do NOT go the speed you can in a winch comp.
I think we will end up with our own rollcage rules one day, but it is not now and it will take quite some work to do it. We'll have to have engineers and lawyers involved and who is going to pay for that. That is the main reason for using other rules. One set would make it easier but it won't happen for a while.
It sounds like both of you have some pretty good ideas and have done your homework so it will begood to discuss this at a meeting where it has an official effect! We need more people with a passion for the sport and a drive to improve the rules to suit the requirements of those that are actually racing or wish to race. The only thing we have to be carefull of is over regulating to a point where the drivers don't have to take responsibilty when they do something stupid. Remember a winch challenge is not about winching. As the rules state, it is a 'General 4x4 competition, that MAY include winching.' More organisers need to read this rules and then be creative. I'll have some stages this year that won't have winching and won't be high speed!!!

Just wondering where does someone find specs and regs for building a exo cage?

That would also make a good topic-Exo cage verses Internal cages for strength and impact resistance?

Cheers

( We cant be the only 3 people that have opinions on this topic are we?)

At last a good topic to get my teeth into

The 4mm plate is to spread the load over a larger surface as a tube welded to the centre of it will distort the plate in a roll over, but will still remain attached.
I compete in Off Road racing and have hit 185kmph in Nelson on a down hill straight, and been passed.
The ORANZ rules are to cover all sorts of vehicles from 4wd's to VW Beatles to RX7's, there for the rules are generic to cover them all, and the speeds that we are capable of doing.
ORANZ rules were never made to cover EXO's, but as rules are made by the clubs and voted on near the end of the year, a remit could have all the rules that are needed put in place.

Rick

So if ORANZ rules were never made to cover EXO cages, where do the specs come from?

There are trucks with ORANZ log books with exo cages so it is possible. ie Shermin did the Taupo 1000 along with other races and has an exo cage. The rules are there you just need to think about what you are doing. It isn't hard to comply but it does take a bit of planning.
My cage has the front hoop running through the windscreen wiper support panel straight to the floor. So 3/4 of the front hoop is exo but from the bottom of the windscreen down is internal.
The onlu place people get caught out with exo cages is where the front hoop joins the body or chassis. Some make a slider that i virtually a chassis member but this is a heavy way of doing it. Most other seem to be going though the body either the guard or like I have. It can be done and isn't that hard.

We chose to leave the options open on which rollcage type that competitors could use because it means that they could then meet at least one other competition's rules if they wanted to use their vehicles more widely. Only the Motorsport NZ has a different source of it's rule. Off Road racing is an offshoot of 4x4 competition and we all use essentially the same rule package in regard to roll cages.
There are various opinions on the values of internal and external cages from a strength and effectiveness viewpoint.

What 4x4 Challenges NZ would like to see is a greater uptake on the logbook system to identify the rollcage systems used and the manufacture/ installation details. Logbooks were a proposal from competitors to simplify safety inspections during events.

Arron, I can understand where you're coming from but maybe you should be airing your thoughts with ORANZ, CCDA or whatever roll cage standard that you use and think is lacking sufficient provision for external roll cages. Unfortunately, none of us here can do anything about their downfalls or grey areas.

As I understand, the rules committee chose to allow any of the 4 standards as there was no reason to re-invent the wheel when there were existing standards which have been developed and proved over many years, each with their own merits. Clearly some of the standards may not suit what you're trying to achieve with the design of your vehicle but having the selection of standards provides plenty of room to design something that works, that's safe and that will pass scrutineering.

As long as you keep things sensible and can prove that you comply with your chosen standard (the roll cage compliance form available from the rules page is a good start) I'm sure your cage will fly through scrutineering.

Good luck with building your vehicle and I hope to see you racing sometime soon.

Hi this Rollcage compliance form is for me a frustrating form to go through, the manufacturer and installer of my roll cage is one person, the late Shane Turner of STR Fabrications , how am I to complete this form without him saying it was built to ORANZ spec's ?

I thought that I would sign on as the Manufacturer, does that sound right ? And I did pay for it in Instalments ??! So at least I qualify as the "Installer"

I doubt that anyone of us can say that the cage they have is to the MANZ specs as they want to inspect the cage before its painted to look at the heat paterns of the welds also you have to be MANZ registered and none of us need to be as I think we are seen as the "dirty ,inbread, six toed, 2nd cousins to motorsport"

Hasn't fuel got expensive, anyone notice that ? Cost me $400 in fuel to use the Range Rover for a day at woodhill.

Crikey Darryn, you know how to complicate filling out forms! It may be that you need to get the approval of the 4x4 Challenges NZ committee for your rollcage. A simple inspection of the structure and evidence of payment to STR Fabrications would probably validate the manufacture.

It sounds like it will be cheaper to truck the Range Rover for any inspection, rather than drive it!

Hey thanks for that Peter I have an ORANZ logbook with 5 events entered into it, would that do as sufficient evidence that the cage complies?

Didn't realise you'd run that cage with ORANZ Darryn, so yes if they have approved it and there's been no changes then your application for a 4x4 Challenge logbook should go smoothly. You are still a paid up member of 4x4 Challenges NZ, so we only need your logbook fee and the paperwork. (A scan or photocopy of the relevant ORANZ logbook page re the rollcage would be fine) The photos can be sent digitally too.