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I have been asked if the rules committee would consider an electric winch class.
I personally don't have a problem with this but I guess it is up to the individual event organisers. If they want to acknowledge it and allocate a prize for it.

You may then have to have a class for PTO and then the hydraulic boys may want to have there own class.
The same could be said about tyres. When the competition first started we were asked to consider tyre manufactures other then Simex.

In a couple of events we also ran a 32 inch class. This was sort by an individual and that individual was able to win that class a couple of times. I might add that there were only two vehicles in that class in one of those events.

In my view you could have as many different classes as you choose. The governing factor should be, is there a great enough need to warrant such a class and is there some one prepared to administer that class.

I agree with John, We don't need to make a rule.it's up to the event organisers to distribute any prizes and awards as they think best, so if they want classes it's up to them.

Hello readers, the electric winch class was spoken to me by a competior after the rotoura challenge, also while i was on the water pump all afternoon, listing to the guys with the trucks, it came up again and again thought by some, if they want be be serious about winning an event they need big bucks$$ and a hydrlic winch.They were and there friends were wondering if it was worth it,unless we spend the bucks and get rid of the electric our chance is slim of taking out number one spot, why wreck my 30K plus truck if when I reach a mudbog of wickerd hill pull Iam out the window with line speed,??Requarding the 32 in tyre class this came about from me to try and get a budget class going, diddent work well so i canned the class. as it was felt by trucks unless you run a 35/36 inch tyre your are out the window., unless you are a migget ?suzuki only to be let down by the electric winch.This electric class would I believe be the answer, yes up to the orgainisers, the very few of us that put everything on the line, we need more numbers, and we need to keep the trucks we have so perhaps this new class would do the trick, its simple, the primemary winch would be declired on the e form but if you run a pto of hydr this would be considered the your main winch, with an electric back up, as hydro and pto are in a class of there own, we all know a electric no mater how great it is cannot and will not compete in a long mud pull or hill climb, the electric is quite franky bloody slow and depends totally on the old battery.Having two classes an electric and a ptohydro class could very well save the winch trucks from coming to an end. also it should generate more truck numbers knowing that, well I cant beat the ptohydro guys, but Iam going to go for NZ numberone winch truck etectric?? class, Well what do you guys recon.
we need to do something, Thankyou Pete Weatherly

How bout a "club" class, say 33" max tyres, electric winch only, stock wheelbase, stock suspension, but allow uprated springs and shocks, stock interior, cage or exo, say no added turbo or supercharger unless it came OEM, 1 locker at either end......cant think of any more...

Cheers
Jafa

During the recent Rotorua Winch Challenge where we were competing, there was the topic of conversation regarding an introduction of an electric class for trucks not set up with Hydro or PTO.
Now, please - don't shoot the mesenger here but I feel it's a debate that "is" going to raise it's head sooner or later. Those driving this concept I believe are competitors who either don't have the facility to adapt their vehicles to PTO or Hydro systems, and also don't have the "cheque book" to fund such dominate winching systems.
I believe the concept of classes has some merits, it gives the opportunity of low - medium budget trucks to achieve some sort of recognition within the series, also there is a opportunity to encourage more drivers to step up a mark and become involved in competition, to grow the sport and get well set up trucks out there mixing it with the big budget trucks.
The logistics on how this class is introduced, what limitations and where is the cut off point is, is indeed a debateable topic. Do we limit it to single motors, exclude the new duel motor winches? Where do we stop and how far do we go????
I agree with George, I believe an ideal place is to start with event organisers, perhaps one will take the bull by the horns and start the ball rolling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think a easy way of catergorising and to keep it simple is to class it into electric winch power or mechanical winch power, it is after all a winch competition so it only seems logical to class it into winch catagories. As an entry level truck will usually have an electric winch to start with, or pto. Tyre sizes would be irrelevant as a suzuki on 32`s has the same diff clearance as a nissan on 35`s. If you start dividing it up to much with different regulations you start taking the competition away, until the feild grows keep it about the winch, and if people can come up with better electric or mechanical winch systems then good on them for thinking out side of the box

Maybe we need to look at a way of having and entry level class to get more competitors into the sport, at a cost effective way. Electric (single engine ??) and mechanical class?? It seems the biggest and most complicated expense would be the winch. This would need to be a series rule. (There would be no point in haveing and electric class at one event when competeing in a series).People who are looking to or are building trucks for the next season need Plenty of warning, as to what direction and changes need to be made to trucks. To be competitive.

I have an electric winch and I don't really care what the winch is. We are so tied up with winches that we forget that a winch competition is a GENERAL 4x4 competition that MAY include winching. It doesn't have to! It comes back to running events that put emphasis on winching skill not on outright power. If the winch is over a short distance then a hydro doesn't have any advantage. The same could be said about suspension, HP etc etc. I've built a truck that will be running over 500hp so in a straight line no diesel will see where it went BUT stage design will dictate wether it is an advantage or not.
I heard all the arguements about big dollars being needed to win events. So Justin has spent $100k's on his truck with is flash suspension and winch! Get real everyone, for $50k you can build something really special. You don't win a winch competition by winching, you win it by driving, team work, making good decisions and not making mistakes. That is one of the appeals behind the sport.
If we had more events with differing terrain and more varied stages then a particular setup wouldn't be so dominant. Take next year, at present there are 2 events being planned and both are north of Auckland. If you want a competition to suit your truck, then organise a comp. and don't put in any big long winches. Problem solved! Same as if your drive a Suzuki, organise a comp that is tight are twisty so hp isn't helpfull. Rest assured the next comp I do will suit big HP and won't have long winches but they will be technical. There will also be option that will allow people to make decisions. The only people who can complain about any comp I organise, is someone who's organised a better one!!!!!!! It's our sport so lets make it how WE want it!
So basically I think we only need one class we just need to make the stages my varied. Every truck has an advantage somewhere.

Well that sums that up.

There seems to be two quite different issues being discussed in this thread.

1) Those who feel disadvantaged by running electric winches against those with hydraulic or PTO, and 2) Budget or introductory winch challenge class. I only intend to comment on item 2)....

Darren Green (Krimnl) in Melbourne is developing a "grass-roots" winch challenge class under CCDA (Aussie governing body for winc challenges). He has backing for the introduction of a GQ Racing class. At this stage its limited to Nissan GQ Patrol in order to make is easy to make the rules and regs. Once it evolves and gets more support it could accomodate Rover or Toyota equivalents etc. Anyway, GQ Racing class.....cage, harnesses, helmets, standard chassis / body configuration, diesel (non-turboed) TD42 engines or petrol (carby) TB42 engines only, 8274 winch with std motors, std control arms (but strengthening allowed), I think 2" susp lift, control tyre (to be determined by event organisers and purchased at discounted rate for competitors) etc etc. There are other restrictions, but I can't remember at the moment. Darren firmly believes vehicles can be set up for less than $12k, including the cost of the vehicle. Basically what Trevor suggested above ^^, and most of the ground work has already been done.

Something to think about anyway.
[Modified by: Mitch O'Brien on August 23, 2007 09:18 PM]

The evolution of classes is bound to happen in any growing competition and while it's something to consider, we don't yet have an ideal array of events for those working to the existing rules.
As Darin suggested, the courses and terrain can create a more level playing field to balance the variations in vehicle specifications. Recent challenge events have been mainly held in single locations to manage costs and logistics, which is understandable. It does however mean that certain vehicle set-ups will be more suited to particular places.

Rather than addressing vehicle / equipment types, should we not look at the stage/ terrain factors to get the balance? Event organisers can still opt to offer specific prizes for categories of vehicle or performance as they wish.

Peter

Firstly let me say that this is not a personal attack on anyone,But it seems to me that to much is being placed on high speed,The original winch comps were just that Winch comps,Not high speed off road racing with the odd winch thrown in.If you want to build a 500hp plus truck to compete that's fine but to line it up against a Suzuki on a high speed drag is madness,If you want to do that then why not enter the Taupo 1000 etc,Sam and co at the last Rotorua comp had it just about right,there were a mixture of tracks that did not really favour any type of truck it came down to team work..Just look at the results Justin and Mike and Nigel and Ben,Totaly different trucks but outstanding team work That's how it should be Hopefully those setting tracks on future comps will follow there lead and set tracks that reward consistent team work and not those with the biggest, fastest ,and largest cheque book...Now you can shoot me down in Flames....

howz it guys just a little dribble that might help .
talking and catching up after comps i have heard nothing about your winches letting u down but more other regular mechanical breakdowns.
i went to a PTO setup because it was 10 times cheaper than an electric and its givin me nothing but problems until recently.
dont forget owen and dave took out many comps with their electric in amongst PTOs and hydros.
but has had his worst finishes to date with the new hdro so where is it made up, teamwork and reliability
boys and a really heavy foot.
im pretty sure most of your vehicles would adapt to a PTO setup easily and for about the same price as an electric winch motor, just an option.
its more fun being the underdog anyway the jack daniels taste sweeter
.later

Hi i think maybe its not a case of electric versus mechanical but of how can we get more people into this sport. maybe a controlled class like aussie is the way to go. Joe bloggs who owns a nissan with standard winch, can see that it is possible to enter this sport. at the moment it seems to have gone to horse power and dear i say it Dollars.(Not that i am against people building great trucks, We all have bad days out there) Any yes your are right a good team is a big advantage, consistancey it to. "To finish first. First you must finish."

if u want entry level classes theres plenty of winch challenges out there offering that, i thought this series was for teams who wanted a good hard challenge against some of the best winch challenge trucks in nz.its takin this long to get up to this standard .
you go from gokarts to formula 1, not take your gokarts to race in formula 1

I sent a couple of young guys who to want start doin winch challenges to smaller comps first to learn about the sport befor they jump in to the bigger comps theres plenty out there. If you dont observe and watch you never learn anything , im still learning now even in the comps we do its not hard to go and ask other teams for advice .

Well, I've been away for a few days and must say, this has certainly attracted some "interesting" comments on the matter. Now, I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here again, but some of the comments here are way off mark! Climb off your pedestals guys, the objective of this idea was not to steel anyones glory about having eight cyclinders and 500hp, or to extinguish anyones high level of testosterone - it was to guage a possibility!
I admit 100%, the key to success is reliability and good team work, after Rotorua Jason and I sat back and pulled the event apart by trying to work out how we can complete stages quicker. Apart from putting the poor co-driver on steroids, it always comes back to the winch and I believe you "do" win events with a fast winch!!! Hp, we've got plenty ( me thinking hell we can't keep the little puddle jumper in a straight line now with the HP) - but I'm sure as hell not going to admit that a electric can keep up with a Hydro on any pull!!!! How can anyone say they are equal and one has no advantage! Why do these guys spend so much coin on them anyway - Get real!
Yes, most of the comments have merit, no-one wants to see the high level of trucks or competition comprimised in any way, it has taken a long time to get this far and we all want to see it progress forward, but evolution has a strange way of deciding the future, maybe there is merit in a Electric Only Event???????? Bring it on!

if u need a fast winch to win how did owen and dave win all those comps in amongst hydros and PTOs?
obviously u dont. Are u guys catchin on yet
hydros have been on the seen for years in the winch challenges and 1 grabs a couple of wins and a few people panic
im not takin sides here just bringin use up 2 speed, some of these guys have been doin this since winch challenges were introduced in nz 7-8 yrs ago watever it was i think they hav earned the right to run wat ever the hell they want without people moaning. why wasnt anyone bitchin wen a hydro won tuff truck years ago.
Hasnt nigeal and ben just blown your guys argument out of the water with their result in rotorua and dont give me that hes liter crap hes a top 6 truck in nearly every event.
It takes a little longer than 2 events to start seeing results guys took us 3 years. these top trucks have got the most important tool experience, they would still be hard to catch on electrics , we ran on a EP9 for 6 stages at norwest and still managed 3rd
Im not against the electric class im just tryin to show you they are still capable.
Rest of my yappin will be done on the tracks see yas in whangarei

Well I'm glad a few people have opinions!
I also think a few more people should look a bit further into it like Justin has said! Winches don't win races but they are a part of it. If you think you need to spend a fortune to compete then you don't actually realise what the races are about. Sure there is a cost involved but what motorsport is free?
Heres a theory for the electric is crap guys. At Whangarei last year, where we had to change track because of how wet it was. 2 of the top three were electric! All the pto's broke (except Aaron who came second) and the hydraulics didn't feature due to driver error!
I'm looking at having a club class at Whangarei this year to encourage new guys to have a go. See the events section for details.

Hello guys, well talking about winches a new class really blew up a bit ah.
what happened to why are we doing this sort of new sport, well because we love it yer, its faster than trails
, it makes us use our brains, it lasts for days, what a great way to spend time of 4x4 with friends,have a few drinks.yep a win is gooood and some teams only want to compete to do so. and get really compitive with it
thats great, others just want to do it because they just love it, come on guys there is only a few of us that compete, not counting me of course iam still building mine last 4 years in fact, and now do i want to continue
buliding the truck or putting on another event, at present iam not sure. we all need to sit back and think, well why do i drive my 4x4 in theses events, BE CAUSE we LOVE doing it, thats WHY, hell there is no big massive money to be made by winning, just been recanised for doing so, we can say we won that event,Iam the man so to speak, hell to me just doing the event your a winner,
as far as Tony white goes just because it seems he is talked about here, Well Tony White is and Mike are too top blokes in my book, Yes they may have the most expensive truck around but hell , you all know tony can drive the wheels off any thing he sits in , and you talk to him or mike these guys are to me and others would be looked on as idols, they never put any one or any truck down, always wanting to help out , hell they have even sponcored events, why most proberly because they just love the sport. talking
with thes guys ,you would think that they have little money in fact, they look and talk like every body else
but they have a mean race truck so it can be used for offroad racing as well as winch challenges,
building a truck that does both is well worth it in my boook, its just common sence more bang for your buck
thats why the truck i have been building for over 4 long years is a mitsubishi pj, { why a pj cause i felt like it.}different yes, a holden 5 ltr, cruiser diffs etc etc, winch well not going there. but its been build for offroad racing and winching
, Note the spelling not great, but thats me. so come on guys stop fighting, lets be happy, and come out a result, thanks for reading, Pete . orgainiser Superwinch tuff truck challenge.

hey people, good to see that everyone is getting involved in the forum. The competitions so far this year, have had a mixture of winching, terrain, and weather which is everything that makes up a 4x4 Winch Challenge. Now the competitions so far have accomodated for many different trucks that have been set up differently, eg, norwest had wide open spaces where you could use the horsepower if you wished to, and rotorua and whakatane had tracks with lots of trees which dosnt do any favours for the paintwork or points where a small truck was definately and advantage. Organisers of these challenges have a hard task in setting up a challenge to suit all these vechiles with different types of winches too, and want to accomodate this. but i still believe what the key factor in winning such competitions is teamwork, good decisions, and reliability and consistency. Fluffy did well in the competitions that he competed in his hilux, mainly through good teamwork and finishing every stage, yet he was running amongst ptos and hydraulics. Steve and dion are doing well in the safari, thanks largely to the reliability of the truck and finishing every stage, also justin and mike are doing well, cause they are finishing every stage. and i am sure there are many others out there who feel the same. Now you can go out and spend $10grand on a hydro winch or $4 grand on a pto or electric winch setup, but that big powerful fast winch isnt much good if the truck isnt running because it has broken down. that is where the competitions are being won and lost, in reliability. a perfect example, the little red suzuki of nigel and ben, and there 2nd place in rotorua. they beat all the hydraulic setups with their electric 8274.

Winch challenge is one motorsport event that has no predictable outcome. Some stages suit the larger vehicles, some stages suit the little weeny ity bity "should not be allowed" Suzuki's (spechly Nigels) . Winches are all the same in the end, my 4 year old PTO gave me loads of problems at Rotorua prior to this its been all good you never know what winch choice is going to do well. Hydraulics don't work well for some competitors who try to winch whilst thier "nisco" lies on its side like wise PTO's with wet engines and electric winches don't like "Nevsville" they all have weaknesses.
I am all for a beginners class even this seems soft really, this is a competition after all.
Winch challenge events have allways been about speed ,competitors pushing the limits. More outright racing is needed with the winching bit thrown in to satisfy the "cup of tea and lie down brigade" (is this anonymous?) seriously winch challenge is fast its should be a long way away from trialing ( far as posssible).
This is not a cheap sport to compete in, the entry fee is the cheapest part, as competitors we spend thousands on our ego's (4X4's) .
[Modified by: Darryn Bell on September 29, 2007 09:54 PM]