Forum

OK, we need to sort out some vehicle specs for club class.
As it currently stands someone could build a copy of the most modified Challenge class truck and compete in club class. I think this is unfair and not the intention of the class.
I believe that we in effect have 2 types competing in the class.
One is the guys who have a good club truck that want to do some competitions but don't really have any desire to compete at a higher level.
The other are the guys who have built a new truck and have never raced before but want to get started and will eventually step up to Challenge class.

I don't see any problem with either of these approaches and I think both need to be catered for.

So is the answer to bring in some vehicle specs that apply after your first season racing? That way you can have a go in virtually anything like at present and if you like it decide where you are going to go?

I think that the original concept was for guys to be able to race their relatively standard truck and not be too disadvantaged. Along those lines you would then be restricted to a production type vehicle so no major changes to suspension, diffs, wheel base, body etc. But you'd be allowed normal engine conversions etc. Under this sort of scenario what about lockers, tyres sizes, winches etc?

The other side of it would be that as a novice you can run anything that complies with the Challenge rules but after your first season you must run Challenge class.

We need to have these discussions now as the rules need to be set at the end of the year for next year and we don't want people to build trucks and then find they can't race them.
Is this the sort of thing guys think should happen or am I way of the mark?

Hi Darren,

Your spot on with the points you have put up for disscussion above.

From a club class competitors point of view, these are the key points of interest to me personally as a competitor, as they potentially effect my participation:

- Continuation of the no WOF and Reg requirement
- No requirement for certain competitors to move up to challenge class (due to road legal requirements of challenge class vehicles)

The rest is up to what ever is decided to by the masses in order to keep the class FUN imho.

(I wanted to say competetive, but the fun aspect is important in club class eh??)

The bigest problem in Club class, is going to be how you cater for Jimbob in his standard Nissan Safari, and say that guy from up North (sorry dude, i can't remember your name) in his super modified Suzuki??

Technically, the Suzuki should run rings around the Standard Safari, but as its a supermodified club truck, you can't very well boot him up to challenge class as its not a road legal truck and never could be.

You also don't want to legislate the like's of this suzuki out of the sport as well, why turn potential competitors away??

Clubclass group A - No wof and Reg etc etc

Clubclass group B - Wof and Reg 1 traction aid etc etc

Food for thought ;)

I agree with the two categories you've identified for Club Class competitors - "Good" Club trucks, and first-time entrants with more serious trucks. Unfortunately they don't really fit the same vehicle specs... We've used a local variation to create a third "Outlaw" class, which has been popular for people who can't meet the WOF/Rego requirement, and has also had a few trials trucks entered. Personally, I think this is the way to go - and keep the Clubman Class as the name suggests - suggested requirements to include:
WOF/Rego (but not the 28-day WOF rule)
33in max tyre size
4-point roll cage (single hoop) - no need to be chassis mounted

Consider also maybe limited to one locking diff, and possibly radial tyres only, and limitations on engine transplants.

Organisers also need to modify courses to suit the less capable trucks, and less experienced drivers. Clubman courses may need to have different lines to reduce risk of rollover, avoid following Open Class lines through bogs, and provide less demanding winch sections. Ideally Clubman Class should be able to use prepared winch points (no ground anchor), and a standard 30m winch cable should be sufficient.
[Modified by: Trev Jamie on July 13, 2009 05:34 PM]

Here is how i see it
same tyre size as challenge
same rules on body panels, chassis mods and general structural build
4 point cage minimum
4 point harnesses minimum
somehow ruling an wof needs to be in place to allow the average kiwi club truck but also keeping the scruitineering process easier for the organisers(without them we would have nothing)
And somehow put in place something to stop a competitor who is clearly gonna be competitive in challenge class but wont move up to the next level either forced to move up or handicapped to even out the odds
Im sure there is other stuff but its what I see is relevent.
The biggest thing is it needs to promote the growth of the sport not reinvent the wheel, a percentage of club competitors will move on to challenge thus move the whole thing forward

I'm gonna be quite vocal ;)

Trev, it has already been decided that there is a Club Class and a Challenge Class, that side of it is not up for debate. No outlaw class, or clubmans class.

What we are discussing here is the rules that are going to put in place for Club Class.

To date, the trend has been to put the Club Class trucks through same courses as the Challenge Class trucks. This seems to have dramatically reduced the organisational pressures.

On that note, Club Class vehicles and rules are going to have to allow for this.

So first off we need to define a Club Class vehicle right??

By doing that, we inturn define what makes a Club Class vehicle different from a Challenge Class vehicle.

Once we have worked that out, we will have us a set of rules ;)

So whats a Club Class vehicle??

Just because it was decided to call it Club Class, does not neccessarily mean ALL club trucks should be able to compete. TBH, my attitude is that if you want to compete, then you gotta meet the rules, if your truck doesn't have a cage and you want to compete, go get a cage. If you don't have plasma winch rope and the rules say you need it, go get it. Same as any form of motorsport. Take car rallying for example.

To add to Dave's list

36" Max tyre size

Same rules on body panels, chassis mods and general structural build

4 Point Cage Minimum on Hard Top vehicles

6 Point Cage of approved standard on Open Top vehicles

4 point Harnesses

Windscreen

Minimum Half Doors

Over head intrusion protection (hard top) over occupants area on Open Top vehicles.

Cargo barrier in hard top vehicles, lock box may be used in open top vehicles

Warrant of fitness is not required for Club Class. Club Class vehicles must be up to WOF
standard of mechanical integrity.

All vehicles need min of 2 forward facing head lights and 1 rear marker light for night stages.

To compete in Club Class a vehicle must not have competed in a Challenge Class competition
in the 2008 or 2009 seasons

The rest of the Challenge Class rules apply.

Club class should be as it says club trucks
Steve Reed came to me and Tony Smith and said I want to run a club class winch challange what rules should we put in place?.
As little as posable to make it cheep an acsesable for everybody E.G club run requiremints + insurenceand helmets and a few more saftey requirments.
We the set the tracks to a standard that high speed speed and roll overs could almost never happen and if thay did it couldnt be more than a flop. Also it had to catter for small slow winches, this ment short and compolsery winches and no ground anchors.
Winches that didnt melt electric motors, alternators or batteries
I think a few more rules should be now added like 4 point cage and 4 point harnes would be good saftey wise but keep it cheep and easy. If you add wof and reg you cut out 90% of people who want to have a go
If you keep it basic guys and girls with flash trucks will soon get bord with it and want a challange and move up to the next class
E.G

Rotarua 09 wof + reg + 4 point cage + 4 point harnes 2 enteries

NorWest club run rules 15 + enteries

Like with challange class add a six point cage enteries drop off $$$ make a huge difference for the average person its there hobbie not an obsesion like most off us challange class guys

Keep it cheep smpile and basic and they will come get them enterested not bankruped
And no politics

So how to manage the issue of Challenge Class Trucks competeing in Club Class??

I firmly believe that by trying to introduce limitation's to tyre size or traction aids etc is conterproductive to the ClubClass and winch challenges in general.

Who wants to drive 33" tyres through a course thats just been driven by a challenge class truck on 36's??

What organiser is going to want to set completely seperate stages for Club and Challenge Class, as the Club class are so restricted that they can't follow in the same footsteps as the Challenge guy's??

Besides, we all know that a Suzuki on 31's has more ground clearence than a Hilux on 33's, and a Safari on 35's only just equals the hilux, so all in all, tyre size is a crap restriction. It just penalises/descriminates against a particular make/modle of vehicle.

Same with traction aids, we all know a open diffed suzuki will climb a greesy hill that a twin locked 2.5 tonne Safari won't even look at. Why penelise the poor Nissan drivers??

We all know that a Nissan will drive through a 2m deep bog and come out the other side, where as the suzuki will capsize, and the occupants have to swim ashore ;)

So you get my point?? Those kind of restrictions are crap, don't work, and kill the fun of a winch challenge. Whether Club Class or Chalenge class, winch challenges are for Tuff Trucks, and Tuff Truks don't run 33" tyres and open diffs.

Same deal with winch's. Why restrict them to 30m of rope?? It discourages enginuity. If some dude wants to cut their drum up on thier chinese Runva and extend the drum so that can fit more rope, then yay for them. Thats the spirit of the sport.

Anyways, back to my point.......................

How to stop the cross over of classes.

I reckon it should just be done via a ruling from the 4x4 challenges committe.

For example, if at an event, a truck stands out as being a potental challenge class competitor, and finishes in the top 5 placings at two or more events, in consultation with the driver, the committe will rule as to whether the vehicle can remain in Club Class for the next event, or has to enter Challenge class. A pattern may emerge over time, and maybe in the future we will be able to make a rule to save the committe ruling??

Heaps more debate and thiniking needed on this point!!!!!!!

My vague idea that i'm playing with is again with the two class's with in club class.

Group A is open what ever goes, build your ultimate clubclass winch challenge machine, your well set up club tuff truck and your up and coming Challenge class competitors.

Group B is for the more standard club trucks. How do you define a more standard club truck??

Or that idea is crap, and it does't matter what you enter into club Class, if your truck is suitable for challenge class, your only doing a disservice to yourself by not entering, and the commite will make you switch class's if its obvious.

That way you get your twin locked, 35"d turbo charged Safari's against your standard open diffed Suzuki's and that is the true nature of a winch challenge is it not??

So are you all saying that you don't think the vehicle specs are even relavent and that someone could buy my truck and then race it in Club class until they actually perform?

The big issue here is one reason for the 4 point cage rule is it keeps the cost down and it is very easy to have a 4 point cage and still have a truck that can be used as a DD. With a 6 point cage the rules get much tougher. (but we are working on something that may make authority cards available without MSNZ involvement)
So at what point does the level of modification say that not having a 6 point cage is just plain stupid?
Is it fair for someone to fit $20k of suspension and then just do Club class and win everything? What about a wheelbase extension or coil spring conversion or twin shocks? All of these things have a huge effect on the speed a tryck can go over a given course. Should Club class be restricted to standard type suspension with no axle changes etc. Do that and you have a season as a novice and then up you go???

In theory having the comittee rule on who must go up to Challenge is good but it is too ambiguous and is therefore open to arguement. I would much rather have it so that the rules are black and white so everyone is in full understanding of what happens. Less room for discussion and so much simpler.

Like has been said, the goal is for anyone to race their normal 4x4 without having a massive disadavantage. You also need to remember that when I started racing in 2005, it was in a Safari on 34's with a standard low mount winch with wire rope and never came last on a stage. If the goal is fun then you can race in any class and have it. To race in Challenge class all you really need is a 6 point cage and a stronger winch. The supposed toughest WC on winches was held on the weekend and an electric winch came second and there wasn't much in it! Also a PTO winch is cheap.

PS Rotorua required 6 point cages for Club class and that is what put people off. If it was a 4 point cage then they would have had a lot more.
There is no where that it says you must cater for all classes. Manukau and Nor-West last year were just Club class. Rotorau was effectively just Challenge class. And there is no problem with anyone doing that.

Well, maybe it all just boils down to the WOF and Reg thing???

I would say that is where the majority of the issues between vehicle spec's in club class and challenge class will come in.

To take your example of the truck with 20k worth of suspension............

So he can go faster than everyone else in Club Class and win's everything.

His truck is not road legal.

Therefore he can't enter challenge class.

The biggest part of keeping the Club Class low budget is the lack of requiremnt for WOF and Reg. You can effectivly buy a cheap deregistered 4x4, like most of us have started with, or use for other sports like Trials and club run's and modify the #### out of it in the shed at home the cheapest way possible.

No needing expensive parts, or professional welding etc etc to keep mr LVV cert guy happy.

THATS what keeps club class low budget.

Trouble is when Mr 20K suspension beats everyone in club class, there is no where to move him to.

So whats his insentive to win?? If he win's, he will be asked to leave the competition and go play with someone else like the challenge class boy's, but he can't because the expense in getting his machine road legal is not even worth thinking about.

Somone else basically has to build a better truck, or out drive him. Its the nature of competition.

F1 didn't make Mr Schumaker go take up WRC because he was winning to much........................

Unless we run the two class's in Club Class like i keep bleating on about like a broken record ;)

Mr 20k suspension and all his buddies go and play out who's got the biggest wallet and the highest repar bill in Clubclass Group A, and Mr Average club truck guy play's with his buddies in Cluclass group B.

That way, they can all avoid the WOF and REg issue, and if a Group B truck is getting to big for it's boots, they get shifted up to group A, and run with the big boy's

Clubclass group A runs the challenge class stages.

Clubclass group B runs the Lower speed easier optioned stages.

To be eligable for Club Class group A you must meet all the challenge truck requirements, except for WOF and Reg or something like this.

I'm just flying idea's around, so the other 87 of you who have read the thread so far, c'mon and say something!!!!!!!!

The way I see it
I look at both classes and I see three major differences between Club and Challenge, suspension, winch speed and horse power. I look at the points from the Whangarei winch challenge where both classes competed on the same stages and I see the club class just nipping at the heels of the lower place Challenge class and no more.
The club class guys have every opportunity at the moment to build with all the fancy suspension, and power they want without the need for cert or WOF, but to date no one really has. So I’m thinking maybe you look at those areas, keep the engines stock (as supplied) and no piggyback or remote res shocks. The speeds plus the ability to speed will be way down, so will the cost.

The logistics of every competition having 2 sets of stages, one for Challenge and one for Club class would not be easy. The only property I have seen that leant it’s self to that was extreme park (Norwest) Whangarei did not and neither will Manukau in Oct, not to mention the extra manpower needed to run a comp like that. All I have spoken with are quiet happy to run on the same stages. I don’t really see that as an issue.
I also don’t see an issue with lockers or tyres, yes they are traction aids, but don’t forget the safety aspect as well, as suggested somewhere up there, “put us on Radials” well after a decent down pour we anit going to get out of the car park with those, as for the lockers, they are usually the second thing fitted to the very trucks you are trying to attract.
My 2 cents
Bernie

I agree with Peter.

If it fits the challenge class rules but doesn't have a WOF/Reg then it should be aboe to race. But there should be some riders, and agree with Peter in that the committee should be able to approach a compediter that is in truck that would meet the Challenge specs and winning every thing in club class and DISCUSS him/her moving up. Human nature will see those with any compeditive nature wanting to move on. The less compeditive will come and place from time to time and probably also run vehicles that are not full on challenge trucks anyway.

I dont belive there should be a max time in the club class. If they run the same tracks etc and still want to give the new guys something to win have a novice title in the points shake out. (perhaps in both classes.)

From having been to a few events in various roles running seperate courses is not really practical. If the role cage spec is going to be 4 point then maybe slight alterations but essentually the same track. (marshells can be thin on the ground at the best of times).

The way I see the sport is this, 2005kiwi challenge(I think) Fluffee took it out in a leaf sprung hilux with an electric winch and a na 4ltr v8 so truck specs mean nothing when you have two guys who go out and do the damage. The big thing needs to be safety so cages harnesses and plasma need to be paramount. Without blowing my own trumpet, I would back myself with my little 6 cyl hilux as I have kept it light and it seems to go alright but winch speed will always kill me as I only have and can only have an electric winch.
I guess it all comes down to who is gonna potentially enter, if you set the rules to suit a dd factory truck are you gonna get the entries you need to justifiy the hassles it will create, Prime example was the recent costa 24 hr teams recovery, It was not exceptionally hard yet only three teams finnished the weekend and most of the casulties were due to poor preperation. Who is gonna enter and why are they entering may be a better place to start. As this will indicate how to set the requirements.

What would happen in club class if there was no first or second etc. Would that make the top guys step up. Sounds like school to me but hay i feel it wrong to make people move up to a more expensive class.
Peter has some very good points about the classes. But how do you say which truck fits what.

I have built my truck from the trade me shop. Front diff lock,landcruiser gear box,1960 pto winch,1989 toyota v8,1988 nissan diffs,Found coils out back of w/shop,std jap seats, 35inch tyres,lots of smashed stuff, few other things(super charger)etcetc. Should it be club class, Keep in mind it still has the back seats and seat belts and the well side fits back on the back.
Last year it was second at Rotorua. (the pit crew won it)
CLUB CLASS IS ABOUT KEEPING IT CHEAP AND FUN AND SAFE
No WOF or REG some roll over protection and 4 point belts.
Any thing goes come have some fun.
If you wont to win build a truck to challenge rules. ( we still have fun )
I am 100% behind club class and will support what you the club class wonts.
Cheers Klembo

The trucks I'm talking about with $10 to $20k worth of suspension are all road legal. This the whole point, you can make virtually anything we want to do road legal if you are smart about it. It is possible to have 36" of suspension travel and be road legal. Well I've discussed the concept with my certifier and he can't see any problems as long as the job is done properly.

At the end of the day the Class is for the competitors and what they want is what will happen. But if all we get is 5 or 6 people telling us what suits them then the class will fail!!!! I guess what I'm saying is all those guys that are reading this without saying anything, either put up or shut up. If you agree then say so, if you don't then give us an alternative (like some are doing).

Don't let the vocal minority rule your sport!!!! (and this is not saying that anything that has been said is wrong)

We also have people starting to complain that there are trucks in club class that should be racing in challenge BUT we have no mandate to be able to rule on this and the is no rule that makes this an easy black or white situation. At present it is just shades of grey!

i think that clul class should be no reg/wof but must be up to wof standard with brakes,steering etc ,min 4 point cage ,basicly the same vehical specs as challenge class without the wof-reg=cert etc ,no limit on mods but must comply with the current challenge class rules ,i dont believe that forcing peoplke to go up to the next class is right you are going to get competitors who cant afford it and we will only end up looseing people ,we have run the Norwest one now for the last couple of years and in that time there really hasnt been a problem we had Gene in the purple hi lux do well in a couple of comps he has now gone to challenge class we had Glen in the landrover come 1st equal this year if he was to win Manukau are we going to say thats your last you now have to go up ? No dissrespect to Glen but his truck wouldnt handle it neither would he or his Co driver want to go to challenge class so thats one team weve now lost ,as the event director we have the final say as to who can enter and this year i declined 2 teams that i thought were not in the spirit of the event and as long as we are all consistant there shouldnt be a problem ,What we all need to remember is that we are all out there to have fun ,keep the requirments as basic as possible to keep costs down ,try to include every one not exclude them ..just a few thoughts..

For what its worth i am pretty happy wth how the rules are this year. But part of the idea of club class is to try and grow challenge class, So with this in mind you really want the club class vehicles being able to meet challenge class specs without major changes ? perhaps Club class should be limited to the manufactures engine or ie hilux utes came out with 4 cyl diesel and petrols so hilux ,s are limited to 4cly toyota motors with what mods you like ,not lexus v8s this would step you up a class.Patrols 6cly nissan engines etc , Also club class should possibly only be able to run of the shelf winches apllicable to the vehicle ie only early model cruisers and patrols would be the only vehicles running pto all others would be electric off the shelf not hydraulic or hybrid and On the track setting it must be a hell of a lot easier if everyone runs the same tracks so maybe cages need an engineers report (thats not expensive)for loading but dont need to be up to manz spec ? All other rules same as challenge even wof and reg.(even though this would mean some major spending for myself)

But most important everyone who want to run needs a firm set of rules to be organising there truck to fit so hopefully we are not trying to reinvent the wheel.
There is some highly modified vehicles in club class but i dont believe they should have to step up to chalenge if they dont want to, maybe points penaltys as we dont want to start excluding guys but the rules need to made so everyone knows where the stand and what mods suit which class !

If you limit vehicles to their factory engine configurations you will need to run two completly different comps, standard vehicles just wont do it and then you are left with an organisational nightmare.
I still think that before you can set the rules you need to find the objectives of the competitors and the organisors and then base the regs around that.

If you are looking for why people are there then there are probably 2 groups. The first is guys newish to the sport that want to have a go at a lower cost with a veiw to moving up to challenge class, then the bigger group who have trucks that are reasonably capable, still look like what they were (all be it modified) that are used for club type stuff and want to do a bit of comp stuff because they can. As Steve has pointed out above there has already been a self regulating control in action. My comment above about the committee discussing the issue with some one who is clearly above the class should be just that, a discussion to look at the options and if required what assistance can be given the that compeditor to make the move.

Keep the rules close to the challenge class, but allow some small differences that will open the class up to a few more vehicles, (chassis and body from different make) wire rope (with strict inspection at scruit), restrict winches to factory, single locker (if you have two pull the fuse on one) if it has fiddle brakes disable them.

As it stands my zuk stretches the rules to the extreme in some places so I would like to continue in that vain but I will alter/rebuild if I have to. It will never go back to being road legal and if I have to go back to standard running gear I wont bother playing. Looking at the trucks currently competing in club class there are a few that would miss out if it was to be a production type class in terms of suspension/axle mods. From what I understand the original challenge class concept was to keep vehicles recognisable but not to restrict kiwi ingenuity.

A class that allows you to build a truck capable of being in the challenge class (with minor mods), as well as catering for those capable club trucks who want to join in is the idea and to acheive that minimising the restrictions is the key.

Quote dave haynes:

If you limit vehicles to their factory engine configurations you will need to run two completly different comps, standard vehicles just wont do it and then you are left with an organisational nightmare.
I still think that before you can set the rules you need to find the objectives of the competitors and the organisors and then base the regs around that.

Gidday Dave in regards to engines comment above 4 out of the five top runners in club class run factory engines (so i guess they do handle it)and 3 of them are only on 32 inch tyres and 3 run standard low mount winches .So having to run two club classes isnt needed. cheers

Quote Scott Brassey:

Gidday Dave in regards to engines comment above 4 out of the five top runners in club class run factory engines (so i guess they do handle it)and 3 of them are only on 32 inch tyres and 3 run standard low mount winches .So having to run two club classes isnt needed. cheers

Hey,
I guess my point was coming from having a 2.4d hilux cause that went no where in that config. And you cant tell me gene battys lux came out standard with a sc lexus in it.
From ore I have seen a few club class comp pics and what I saw was v8 cruisers and luxs so thats what im basing it on.
I believe there should be some reguation to keep the sport cheap but also if it is over regulated there will be too larger gap between challenge and club.

Over the next few events that include club class we need to ask what they want.
Half of them probably dont know this site exsists. There is no point making rules behind there backs we dont want to lose people.
Maybe give them a list with as many rules as we can think off that could be put in place and get them to cross off the ones thay dont want.
We need to include everyboby in this, that was the whole idear of club class