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I think having a modified class and a production class would be a good idea.Run both classes together to keep it simple for the organisers maybe even with challenge class like northland was run i thought that worked well.Modified could be do what what ya want to ya truck within 4x4 challenges rules and production could be standard engine and drivetrain,off the shelf aftermarket suspension kit max 50mm lift,open diffs,4 or 6 point rollcage.similar specs to a group N rally car.Just a idea

I think placing a restriction on engine modification/swaps is a waste of time.

Just like placing restrictions on tire size, and traction aids.

Refer to my earlier post for my opinion on tyre size restriction, and how it discriminates between vehicle modles.

Also refer to Bernies comment on traction aids. That is very relevant.

As for engine restrictions, this again discriminates between vehicle makes/models, and will be impossible to police.

Here are some reason's why:

Take your Hilux for example. This come factory with a giant 2.8 litre diesel engine pumping out a huge 3hp. This same modle of vehicle also came with various 4 cyc and v6 options. The v6 being the powerhouse.

So anyone considering being competetive in a hilux, will buy their hilux, throw their 2.8 in the bin, buy a v6, buy the necessesary services and components to fit the engine and wire it in, aftermarket computers etc etc $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Either that or buy a turbo charger kit and fit that to the 2.8 and increase it to 3.5hp.

Meen while, in the Nissan Camp, all of the nissan guys are on the phone to the fella's in Rotorua, getting $$fuel pump modifications$$ and turbo's from them to fit to their Diesel engines, or throwing the TD42 in the bin and looking for a TB42, stripping it down, decompressing it, going on ebay and finding the biggest supercharger they can and fiting it.
Ask Warren how much he has spent on his factory fitted TB42 engine?? Ask Aaron how much he has spent on his factory fitted TD42 engine??

So we will just ban any engine modifications you say??

Thats a slippery slope of killing the competition i would say.............

Food for thought, for the average person with modest skills and a few contacts and half a clue, you could repower your hilux with a Commy/Buick 3.8 V6 for under a $1000.

You can buy a luxus 1uz v8 for $1500, and with the right contacts, source the neccessary bits to bolt it straight to the hilux transmission, blaze on some engine mounts, and hey presto, cheap power.

Well, cheap power when you consider the $$$$ people could potentially start to pump into their standard engine to get an edge.

More scenario's:

Mr 2.8l Hilux with 35's weezes and puff's his way up a hill, and has to winch the last few meters........
Mr 1uz Hilux with 35's roars up the hill, wheels spinning in the air, mud flying, and blows a drive shaft...........DNF

Mr twin turboed 1uz Safari make's all the right noises, but reliability lets him down.
Mr 4l Standard Jeep make's 12 hp, but keeps going all day long like the tractor it is. Beats the safari.

My point is, whats far more important than whats under the bonnet, is the skill of the nut behind the wheel.

No point having the best truck, with the highest Hp and all the good shizz, if you can't pedal it right??

We all know that eh??

So i maintain that engine restrictions, alot like tyre restrictions and traction aid restrictions will impede the sport, excluding potential competitors, restricting the skope for enginuity, and putting an end to the "up your's" factor of beating a high powered truck in your standard 1300 1.5hp suzuki ;)

All you do is push people towards squeezing the most out of their standard engine, and if you have ever had anything to do with a production class series of racing, you will know the serious $$$ that get spent on squeezing every last drop of potential out of a standard engine. This can range from balancing, porting and polishing, blue printing, through to illegal mods such as say skimming the head/s to up compression etc etc.

Then you get on to the expensive buisness of the bolt on accessories such as turbo's and super chargers as a i mentioned earlier.........

Does a DTA trubo charger kit for a Safari that cost $2000 perform as good as a custom turbo set up for $10,000+ ????

How do you police it??

You might also find that certain modles of vehicle drop out from the competition also as the options for swapping in a more powerfull engine to run the bigger tyres don't exist, take the suzuki SJ413 for example. Why would anyone want to compete in one of those, with the standard engine and standard gearing?? YUUUUK!!!! The problem being, the 1300 is the Big Block modle, thats as good as they get. On 31's, they have less power than a N.A 2.4 hilux!!!!!!!

To me, logic would suggest that if your going to allow bigger than standard tyres to be run, you have to allow for the inevitable requirement for power increase to drive them.

Oh and then there is going to be the increase in driveline strength that is required as well..............

If your sick of reading, you can stop, it'l still be here tomorrow, but i also want to disscuss my current opinion on the sugestion for standard drivelines/diffs/gearing.

Restricting a vehicle to standard diff's and axle's is in much the same vain as above with engine's. You mearly discriminate against a model of vehicle.

We all know that the GQ safari as a pretty solid driveline, and will handle respectable Hp and abuse fairly well with 35" tyres.

We all know that Hilux axles are good, but need to be treated with more respect due to the smaller cv's and 8" diffheads.

What i am saying is that if your are going to allow 35" tyre's, you need to allow competitor's to increase horse power to drive the bigger tyre's, and therefore the drive line is going to have to be stronger to alow the power to be transmited to the bigger tyres.

In the world of standard diff's and axles with Hp increase's:

Obviously, Mr GQ Safari will be fine to an extent. Well, to a far greater extent than Mr Hilux.

Mr Hilux does the cheap 1uz v8 engine swap. He shred's crown wheels, eats pinions, make's drive shafts into spaghetti and starts a wall of fame for the story behind each of the 100 or so destroyed CV's. Standard Hilux CV's suddenly become worth $500 each due to increased demand....

Obviously he is miffed, because the rule's don't allow him to buy the set of 60 series cruiser diff's on trademe for $500 and slap them under as a quick fix using the existing leaf spring set up, or go one better and put the GQ stuff under there for not much more.

Instead, in much the same vain as i disscussed earlier in regard to the engine's, he sits infront of the computer, credit card in hand, and shell's out $2200 for a Longfield super set, $800 for a bling set of R&P's for front and rear etc etc and still has a marginal drive line. Especially when he could have fixed the problem for $500???

Is the same principle is it not?? (ok, my facts aren't 100%, but the principle has merit right??)

There are two ways of doing this to keep the budget down:

You have a huge MONSTER set of rule's in which you specify all posibilities for each individual modle of vehicle in terms of the engine's which can be used, including all of the specifications that these engine's must adhear to in order to prevent the potential excessive spending i was raving about............

Or you allow engine and drive train modification's. Peoples enginuity will run wild, see what they come up with. There are so many possibilities out there for doing stuff on the cheap.

Its either that, or you don't allow a tyre size any bigger than fitted by the manufacturer, that way there is no need for Hp increases, and no need for a stronger driveline.

Engine swaps are ingrained in 4wding, from the days when every FJ40 Landcruiser had a chev v8, every Series Landrover had a Holden 202, and every LJ Suzuki had a Datsun a12..............

Those are my thoughts at this point in time at least.....................

Hell of a post Pete I agree with you, no point to banning engine and drivetrain mods/swaps. Its a winch challenge, not a shiny trip. It would also outlaw a lot of the current club class competitors. I think the basic requirement is no reg or wof, other than that, its basically challenge class rules. As far as what to do about forcing competitors to move up, I have no good ideas there

Cheers
Jafa

Arrrghh I had a nice big post and the net or something crashed.

Short version.

Body/Chassis
As per Challenge class but allow mix make body chassis (same restriction on chassis mods)

Engine mods
Standard engine from any vehicle (any make model) No mods to engine, carb as it came, computer as it was. No using high compression non turbo motor using turbo from lower compresion stablemate (but buy all mean use complete turbo version etc). Allow any piping to carb/throttle body, and extractors as it may assist in fitting. (pretty sure all those using older V8s with mild mods could find a car that was close to spec originally). Any radiator (fitting issues)

Drive train
Any gearbox and trans, with custom adaption in between if required (allows for the use of car stuff and mating to 4wd transfer) Factory spec internals. Afer market cooler if required

Axles
Any from any where, Factory internals with exception of 1 locker ( of you have 2 pull fuse on one Nomnated end at start of season)

Suspension
Leaf/shock or Coil/shock, no coilovers or fancy air/nitrogen style springless jobs or remote canister. Single shock per corner Custom links if you want and anti wrap bar for leaf if you want.

Tyres
One set nominated at start of season (can be replaced one for one if damaged beyond repair (not for wear) size as per Challenge class

Winch
Factory spec. Electric as it came from factory (if later model of same winch, gear ratios and all, has a bigger motor then upgrade motor only) PTO if it is a factory fit to your gear or transfer, factory commercially avalible hydraulic. Wire rope????? or Plasma

Roll cage/safety
4 point for hard top 6 point for soft top and the rest of safety stuff as per Challenge class including 4 point harnesses

Lights
Some form of frontal lighting (to comply with body needs something in headlight holes but can be spots not factory if the fit), one rear brake and tail light minimum.

No WOF but up to reasonable standard of mechanical safety.

Everything else as per Challenge Class rules includingn ground anchors, equipment etc

Aim to leave things open but not end up with Challenge class capable trucks playing in Club class and also restrict costs a bit. (my modded sj413 fits in this and owes me less than $10K including original purchase)

My bias 7 cents ( gotta make a profit in a recession).

Hmm ended up nearl as long as the first but makes more sense (I think)
[Modified by: Daniel Cleaver on July 20, 2009 09:35 PM]

while i can see most of the points raised are valid i think we are forgetting why club class was started in the first place ,when we ran the first Norwest comp the idea was to include any one who wanted to have a go as long as there truck was safe hense the reason for no wof/reg /cert etc i dont think putting restrictions on suspension ,motors etc will work as we will end up excluding the very people this type of comp was meant to include ,from an organisers point of view we would end up being police men spending half our time scriutenering trucks and thats something i dont want to do .there will always be some very clever people trying new combinations of motors etc and we need to encouage them not put barriers in there way ,if we were to restrict engine transplants i can think of at least 5 teams that would be excluded .in the end if the tracks are set right the team with the biggest best truck will not always win it comes down to team work and thinking about it " as i have said befoe we must make it open to anyone with a safe truck to have a go .i think we could use all of the challenge class specs with the exeption of the wof/reg and we should allow the mixing of body / chassis makes ..my thoughts..

Quote stephen reed:

while i can see most of the points raised are valid i think we are forgetting why club class was started in the first place ,when we ran the first Norwest comp the idea was to include any one who wanted to have a go as long as there truck was safe hense the reason for no wof/reg /cert etc i dont think putting restrictions on suspension ,motors etc will work as we will end up excluding the very people this type of comp was meant to include ,from an organisers point of view we would end up being police men spending half our time scriutenering trucks and thats something i dont want to do .there will always be some very clever people trying new combinations of motors etc and we need to encouage them not put barriers in there way ,if we were to restrict engine transplants i can think of at least 5 teams that would be excluded .in the end if the tracks are set right the team with the biggest best truck will not always win it comes down to team work and thinking about it " as i have said befoe we must make it open to anyone with a safe truck to have a go .i think we could use all of the challenge class specs with the exeption of the wof/reg and we should allow the mixing of body / chassis makes ..my thoughts..

Totally agree Steve!!!!

The more specific the rule's get, the more vehicles you rule out of the competition.

re. the comment earlier on having one set of tyres for the season...

Was that ment as a cost saving measure??

If so that probably wouldn't work, as you would find that the first thing people would do, is go out and buy another brand new set of rims and tyres specifically for doing winch challenges.

They would run one set for the hundred of other trips and events they do during the year to avoid wearing out the other precious set they have been alocated for the winch challenge season.

As for the motors, why??

Whats the difference between having an SR20DET in your truck and buying a SR20DE, running that for a while, then setting it up to take a turbo down the line a bit when fund's allow??

With those proposed rules, if you wanted to turbo your SR20, you would have to throw that engne out and buy a whole SR20DET, or shell out first off on the turbo'd motor.

Or those who want to turbo their 2.8 3L in their Hilux wouldn't be able to, as it would be a high compression engine, with a turbo fitted, as you suggested should be ruled specifically against.

Just doesn't make sense to me personally at least.

I am strongly for the K.I.S.S principle when it come's to the rule's.

Also, sorry if i am being a bit vocal in here, but like Darren said, It's our competition, so its up to us to get the rules in place that will support the contination of our class. You all have the same opportunity as I do to speak up.

I believe that all we really have to do at this stage of the game, is make official the rules that Steve has been running for the Norwest OHV club class compettion.

They have worked well so far.

Then, as thing's need to be tweaked, we tweak them.

But by using Steve's rule's, we at least have a set of rule's in place that have been proven to work, so its effectivly a head start for the class.

There's nothing seriously wrong with them, they don't specifically exclude anyone other than current challenge class competitors, and those that have a rear mounted radiator for those nasty deep bog's commonly found on mid winter bush trips. (maybe a future tweak??)

Hell, the rules ptentially even allow certain class's of trials trucks to enter with the adition of a few simple safty requirements.

Oh, and by all means don't think that i think the rule's are perfect!!!!!

I personally have an issue with the requirement for glass in the rule's amongst other things............

But now is not the time or place to get that changed, we just need to get some rules in place, so lets use the tried and tested one's as a good place to start.

Cheers,
Pete.

I think some of you are missing the point. Currently club class is effectively Challenge class without the need for a 6 point cage and no need for a WOF.

That is just not sustainable and if something happens how do you explain to Mr Plod that it is still safe?

I like the idea of single shock and no coil overs. I can see the argument for not restricting springs types etc.

So you don't want any restrictions on motors? This a safety issue. If someone has 500hp then things can go wrong quickly. Sure it may not be an advantage to them but it sure as shit makes the truck more dangerous and requiring a 6 point cage is one way foward. So maybe transplants are fine but if you modify a transplanted motor then you must run a 6 point cage?

I also think that winches should be standard. Factory PTO or electric with upgraded single motor only. No hydraulic, no twin motor electric. This is straight out about cost.

Why can't club class have a log book as well to record vehicle specs? The point of the log book is to make it easier to keep track of vehicle mods.

With all this in mind, Has any indication been given as to the rules that will be run at the Taupo comp in november

If you are going to run two classes of trucks, you are going to need a rule or a set of rules to differentiate between the two, its very easy to say leave the rules as they are, well the point is, there anit no rules other than the requirement of not running in Challenge class for the last 18 months, and as someone else has alluded to, there is nothing stopping anyone purpose building a Club class truck right now that does not have to comply with any Cert or WOF rules what so ever. I know of one being built right now, no cert and no WOF, and he don’t plan on it ether. I’m actually encouraging him, don’t no if I’m right or not in doing so. But I do believe the sport needs people like him.
Anyway,
The problem arises when you try to write a rule for a class that already exists i.e. Club Class, it don’t matter much what you write, you are going to alienate someone.
I thought about the engine rule for a long time before I wrote it down, I still see this as one of the two biggest things that sets Challenge and Club class trucks apart, the other being the big dollar suspensions. I still like it because I believe it simple, and easy to police, Yes it limits ingenuity, but that’s what rules do, any rule. There’s plenty of other stuff left to play with to encourage the ingenuity
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to alienate/ban anyone. You could also implement the “Grand Father Rule” I don’t know what the correct term is, but it basically means you can’t ban a truck that already exists and is competing by the stroke of a pen. I say this, because, I don’t see that things have got out of hand yet.
Bernie

keepin them road legal would really even the playing field, although stopping those who already compete but it does keep things even and by adding the susp and winch rules could make for a great comp.
Is there any point starting a comp that may be dominated by a couple of purpose built trucks? makes it hard for joe average to get into the sport and have fun. Not only do not all of us have hugh hefners bank account some of us dont have the gear or skills to do these modifications without paying someone to do it. Perhaps those building such vehicles could be run on the same tracks as club but be scored in a different class?

Reading these posts - it seems to me that the whole discussion lacks a common start point. What is a "Club" truck? Most Club trips I've been on involve a bunch of people meeting up, driving to a venue on public roads, having a play on some tracks which may be on private land, DOC land, Forestry or whatever, and driving home again. So being road legal isn't optional, it's a fundamental requirement! And most of the trucks aren't significantly modified, with just enough lift to fit a set of 33in (or for the "serious" trucks maybe 35in) tyres. And I thought the idea of a Club Class was to try and get some of these low-cost trucks to have a go on the lowest rung of competition. An "entry-level" class for less capable trucks...

Certainly that is what the Club Class in the Mainland Challenge series has been aimed at! And the most recent event at Lake Rotoiti was a huge success because the organiser deliberately set the courses with these trucks in mind. There were a good number of entries, the event was huge fun with few breakages, and most trucks drove to & from the event under their own steam. To me - that is what the class should be about - drive sensibly and drive home - make it a bit more challenging than the average Club trip, but no need for the extra cost of trailers and support vehicles.

The type of trucks being discussed in this forum seem more suited to an unrestricted division of the Challenge Class. Big horsepower, big tyres, big suspension upgrades, high capability, big money. It's a class above the Challenge Class to expand the sport at the top level, where the Club Class should be a class below to encourage entries at the bottom rung. Hence my proposal earlier to keep it simple and basic - 33in tyres, road legal, and safety requirements appropriate to less capable vehicles with lower speeds and courses set to limit the risk (and severity) of rollovers.

And I disagree with those who have said it is too difficult for organisers to set different courses. I've been on the organising committee for two winch challenges (and the next "National Series" in Marlborough Queens Birthday weekend next year), and we've done so with little difficulty. Slightly different lines through some obstacles, setting "gates" so vehicles have to stop at the beginning of banks for a compulsory winch, or bypassing some of the more hazardous sections is easy to do, and only requires a briefing on the route by the marshal, or possibly moving a piece of bunting to clearly show the different route.

So lets agree on the fundamentals first - then play with specific rules.

See thats a fundamental difference in opinion right there (its a good thing )

But first I would like to say leave the shinys with mud tyres to the club funday events. If you want to "have a go" , you come in a truck that is prepared, or you do club funday type event.

But if you do enter, you won't be turned away, and you only have to drive to where you feel comfortable.

I really wish we could change the name from Club Class, it would get rid of so much confusion.

If you want to compete in a real competition, you are going to be up against the like's of trailered vehicle's, and it is highly advisable that you arrive with your vehicle on a trailer, as you might not be able to drive it home.

Its a COMPETITION, the purpose of which is to provide an opportunity to push your limits and those of your vehicle. Its also a race, high speed is involved.

If you just want to drive round some peg's and winch through some mud, then maybe its not for you??

The idea is to include teams/vehicle's/people, but that there is a line. A line where you can't compete because you need X,Y and Z. We are trying to make that line as reachable as possible.

Eitherway, like i said earlier on, and is becoming prevelant right now in that last couple of post's, there are a couple of distinct groups of vehicles that we are tyring to cater for.

As Trev said, you have your shiny's with mud tyres. Ok, ok, your "road legal truck with mud tyre's"

I can think of half a dozen teams that i saw competing at north island events this year that fall into this catagory.
We had a few SWB safari's, a XJ jeep, a LWB Landrover, a SWB vitara etc etc Call them Group A

And then the like's of me, with my Zook, trailered, full caged, not road legal, 100+Hp toyo motor, but standard running gear.

There was me in my previous vehicle Thunderguts, which was 100% home built, two suzuki SJ413's, a jeep kj??, a SWB safari, a vitara, and another home built suzuki based thing, a cruiser body on a Safari chassis with a 350 chev. Call them Group B

Then there are the other guy's, like Ben in his FJ40, Glen in his Landrover, Jeremy in his Prado/Hilux, Jean (sp?) in his Hilux and others that are road legal, but are tough. Call them group C

Todate, club class has been a mix of these vehicles, with the guy's in group C dominating, and as Bernie said, just nipping at the heels of the challenge class guy's in terms of stage time's.

I suspect the reason these guy's are in Club Class, is due to a variety or reasons, Ben is experience related, Jeremy's issue is the bidy/chassis rule and experience, Jene is experience and Glen is because he is having fun exactly where he is. Budget will also be a huge factor as well, you can generally complete a clubclass event with out major repairs at the end. These are the guy's who are anticipated in moving up to Challenge class, as they are effectively honeing their skiils and ironing out their trucks in preparation. These guy's are serious competitors.

As for group B, well, they try to give the group C guy's a run for their money. Thing is though, it's these guy's that are usualy doing things on the lowest budget possible. Thats why they have a trailered vehicles, as having a road legal truck is a big investment to use as a dedicated off road vehicle and use in competition's as a toy. we can make our own cage's, we can fit what ever seats we like, we can chop and hack at the body to fit big tyre's, we can shoe horn in what ever motor we can get our hands on for cheap, the list goes on. What this boils down to, is that the level of expenditure/investiment in these vehicle's is not huge, and as a result you mostly get teams that are FUN orientated, and just like competeing amongst themselve's. A good placing is fine, but if you can complete the event, stick in a couple of good stage time's, and drive onto the trailer at the end of the event, thats enough. They are off to do some other sort of event a couple of weekends later, trials, tough truck, bush trip what ever....

Group A guy's will generally either have another daily driver vehicle, and the fourwheel drive they use at the weekend's is their slightly modified to take bigger tyre's average 4x4, or it is their daily driver, so can't have it off the road through damage or for modification. I have been down this road also, so from experience, they don't want to wreck their trucks, as they are a big investment. They don't do huge modifications, as that means getting a cert which is a dead $500. They don't want to get a full 6 point cage as a couple of thousand is again a big expenditure just for winch challenge's as they don't need it for anything else they use the vehicle for. It can also limit useability/access throyugh the vehicle into the rear passenger compartment. Again, the expenditure required is above the limit of FUN.

So what to do??

You can't cater for everyone??

Or can we, we have been doing it so far have we not??

I just can't get it into my head why there is so much resistance to having club class divided into groups?? Someone is going to have to explain to me really slowly and clearly so i get it ;)

The way i see it, is that at the end of the day, the groups are just on paper. They are just defined in the rules, and again on the score cards.

Some Proposed Rules

*********************Group A******************************** The shiny boy's :)
Apart from the following exemptions, full 4x4challenges rules apply:

1. Four point roll over protection

2. Standard engine, or certified engine swap/modification -(this deals with the 500hp, no cage issue)

3. OEM suspension configuration, no remote resivoir shocks as per Bernies recomendation.

4. OEM Axles and internals

5. OEM body

6. OEM Chassis

7. OEM pto winch

8. Standard electric winch

9. Standard aftermarket electric winch

10. Standard Hydro winch, as it was designed to be powered by the manufacture ie piggy backed to P/S pump type thing.

11. Traction Aids allowed (Why restrict them?? Most 4x4's have a LSD as standard. If you don't have a locker right now, don't grizzle, save up and buy one, or make one, its not going to stop you entering and having fun is it??)

*********************************Group B****************************************** The Non-road legal Boy's
Apart from the following exemptions, full 4x4challenges rules apply:

1. 6 point NZ4WDA min spec cage (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules, but caters for the 500hp trucks)

2. Full 4 point approved safty harnesses (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

3. No WOF/REG required, but must be declared to be of a standard of mechanical integrity suitable to compete by the competitor.

4. Chassis modification allowed.

5. Body modification allowed, orginal panel work shape must be retained, replacement panels allowed as per 4x4 Chalnegs rules. (this is to prevent tube bodied, alloy paneled purpose built trucks)

6. Body and chassis may be from different sources

7. Axles and Axle internal modification allowed ( to allow for axle swaps, or the use of chromolly CV's etc etc)

8. Suspension configuration change's allowed (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

9. Coil overs allowed (Why not?? goes hand in hand with suspension modification, they can't be done on the cheap, so doubt many will run them),(not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

10. No remote resivior Shocks.

11. Any Engine allowed (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

12. Rear mounted radiators allowed.

13. OEM pto winch

14. OEM Standard electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

15. Standard aftermarket electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

16. Standard Hydro winch, as it was designed to be powered by the manufacture ie piggy backed to P/S, or driven from a stand alone P/S pump. (to avoid big dollar hydro winch set ups)

********************************Group C************************************ The Tough Road Legal Boy's

Apart from the following exemptions, full 4x4challenges rules apply:

1. 6 point NZ4WDA min spec cage (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules, but caters for the 500hp trucks)

2. Full 4 point approved safty harnesses (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

3. WOF/REG required.

4. Chassis modification allowed. (allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

5. Body modification allowed, orginal panel work shape must be retained, replacement panels allowed as per 4x4 Chalnegs rules. (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules),(allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

6. Body and chassis may be from different sources. (allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

7. Axles and Axle internal modification allowed ( to allow for axle swaps, or the use of chromolly CV's etc etc)(not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules), (allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

8. Suspension configuration change's allowed (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

9. Coil overs allowed (Why not?? goes hand in hand with suspension modification, they can't be done on the cheap, so doubt many will run them),(not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

10. Rear mounted radiators allowed.(allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

11. OEM pto winch

12. OEM Standard electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

13. Standard aftermarket electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

14. Standard Hydro winch, as it was designed to be powered by the manufacture ie piggy backed to P/S, or driven from a stand alone P/S pump. (to avoid big dollar hydro winch set ups)

Please feel free to quote these, and add, remove and crtique, qeustion these as you see fit

[Modified by: Peter Hall on July 22, 2009 12:46 PM]

You have all trucks competeing on the same stage's.

Easier winch's for the club class guy's due to their class requirements for winch's.

Maybe even easier "outs" for the Group A guy's.

Group C guy's are the competior's most likely to feed Challenge class in the future, as they are building trucks that are road legal and therefore have REAL potential for entering that class. They are basically a challenge class truck, but they are held back by heavily restricting winch specification rules.

These winch spec rule's put the whole of club class on a level playing field when it come's to winching.

It also sets club class apart from Challenge class, where you can build what ever the hell winch you like provided it has a atomatic brake.

As a result you don't get challenge class /trucks/competitors competeing in club class, and you can also allow some of the more unsual trucks to do a winch challenge, such as different body/chassis, shortened chassis etc et

Sure they can't move up to Challenge class, but If it was their intention, they don't have an excuse as the challenge class rules are pretty clear.

You don't get the shiny boy's complaining about being against trailered trucks and not having a fair chance, because they are in different group, sure its only on paper, but if it makes them happy and have more FUN, then thats just sparkly!!!!!!

You can allow the multi discipline trailered trucks in.

Basically the main advantage that groups B and C will have over A is straight line speed, due to alowing suspension modifications, and in Group B, easy engine swaps.

Also, think about this:

A couple of guy's might enter their weekend warrior cruiser into Group A for a a bit of fun because they can.

They like...... (due to not being scared away)

They start building and improving the truck over a period of years as the paint goes duller and the dents grow bigger, and before you no it they have some experience and are now in Group C. They decide that they are now awesome, and nipping at the heels of the challenge class trucks, so go away, sort out a good fast winch, and enter challenge class.

I just solved you feeder problem eh??

Mean while, they guy's in Group B are still batteling it out amongst them selve's, and due to the fact that they can never enter their trucks into challenge class due to them not being road legal, and also being restricted to standard winch's, we see some highly evolved vehicles emerge that fit the rule's, have drivers with huge experience from doing lot's of other forms of 4wheeling in their trucks, and may grow into monster that is the future of the sport. Actually it's more likely no one will bother building a truck specifically for Group B, as you can't go anywhere from it, its dead end. That will keep those of you who are worried about someone building a non road legal 50k club class special quiet. No one will bother, because you can't compete with the hi powereded winch's, or drive the tough line's.

Untill we invent an Outlaw class equivilant eh Jafa

Also, this way, there is no reason someone can't compete year after year in the same group within the same class if they desire, but Challenge Class will always be seen as the ultimate class as thats where the guy's run the REAL winch's, and drive the TOUGH stuff.

[Modified by: Peter Hall on July 22, 2009 03:23 PM]

Yes, club class might not be the right name for it, as I don't see it as something for 4wd newbies. It's for Joe Blogs with a well setup 'club' truck who wants to take things to the next level and have a go at competition. There will still be the need for those casual winch challenge days where anyone in your club with mud tyres and a winch can have a go, but at the level of competition that we've been seeing at club class events recently, especially considering they're running on similar tracks to challenge class, club class won't really be the place for the guy with the standard patrol on radial mud tyres and a low mount electric winch.

The problem we have is trying to keep club class at a level that is obtainable to these people with the well setup club truck without appearing to be too hard or too competitive and at the same time accommodating seasoned club class competitors who no doubt will get very good at this over time. A lot of the vehicle specs that have been talked about here are very close to challenge class specs, which is good as it makes taking the next step relatively easy, but the big down side is that there is nothing in the specs to try and restrict the level of the competition in club class to keep it obtainable for Joe Blogs.

I don't know if having 'groups' within a class is really neccessary either. I'd guess that the group 'A' guys (as you call them Pete) are quite happy giving the group 'B' guys a run for their money, and us group 'C'ers won't be hanging around for long. And all these groups end up placing in amongst each other, so they're probably not so clear cut performance wise.

So lets say we make club class have the same rules as challenge class, but no coil-overs, only a single dual-tube shock per corner, no hydraulic bump stops, standard winches etc. and we make it so competitors can compete in that class for as long as they like without any pressure to move up. If that was the case, it would only be fair to then allow people to move back from challenge class as they please, would it not? I know of a few competitors in challenge class who would (or could) meet these vehicle specs and would like to move back to club class, but then club class will quickly become a class that is (or at least seems to be) un-obtainable to Joe Blogs in his club truck.

This is a real hard one to solve, and I don't have any real answers I'm afraid, but as a suggestion, maybe we should be thinking about creating two new classes...

One class which is like challenge class, but with rules to limit spending, and stage setting to limit speed and keep winch distances short (lets just call it club class for now) and then have another sub-class of that class which is a novice class. This class could have the same vehicle specs but have a time limit, so it caters for Joe Blogs in his club truck, and allows him to have a season or two racing other novices for a novice trophy. When their time is up in novice class, they can then continue to compete in club class, except they will no longer be competiting for the novice trophy, and will be up-against the seasoned club class competitors.

This (I imagine) will suit teams like you & Sarah, Pete, who will get pretty good at this winch challenge thing in time, but have no desire to move into challenge class (or maybe you will get tempted by challenge class? but there will be teams who will want to stay in club class). And it'll suit others in challenge class who are maybe feeling a bit out classed now and want to tone things down a bit. And it caters for Joe Blogs in his club truck who can race other winch challenge newbies and have a good chance of winning.

What do you guys reckon?

And just as an aside, We've only been racing in club class because our roll cage doesn't meet the 6-point specs, our winch isn't really up to it (and I don't fancy forking out for 2 new winch motors every few comps - electric winches are definitely not the cheap way to go!) and because I'm usually the winch man, not the driver (we meet the body/chassis rule). I'm very grateful that we've been allowed to race and am aware that there's probably a few who are asking why.

Another possibility for encouraging the serious guys to step up to Challenge Class...

Just flying a kite here... But why not keep the Club Class as one-off events, and not carry points through the series? If you want to compete in the whole series, you have to be in Challenge Class. Nothing to stop someone entering every event in Club Class, but there would be no overall honours. Or maybe you place a limit of say 3 or 4 Club Class entries in a year - if they want to compete more frequently - they have to step up a class.

Yes that's a possibility, but from talking to club class competitors its been made pretty clear that there will be competitors who have no intention of ever moving up to challenge class, and we really shouldn't be writing off the chance for them to compete against one another for a series title.

I think one of the keys to differentiating between challenge and club class is in stage design - challenge class have longer stages, with speed sections, and more difficult winch's - club class stages should have shorter winch distances and be tight enough to restrict speeds. And stage design like this would provide a good incentive for the more competitive club class teams to make the move to challenge class (more exciting stages).

Quote I think one of the keys to differentiating between challenge and club class is in stage design - challenge class have longer stages, with speed sections, and more difficult winch's - club class stages should have shorter winch distances and be tight enough to restrict speeds. And stage design like this would provide a good incentive for the more competitive club class teams to make the move to challenge class (more exciting stages).[/quote:

I certainly agree with that!