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The thing is organisers are pushing to run Club on Challenge courses to reduce organisational preasures.

What Steve did at the last Norwest was tops, we ran essentially the same stage's, with just shorter winch's from memory.

In saying that, Daniel Hill's tough little stock, open diffed zook with standard alternator, 1 battery, and a low mount Warn m8000 finished Whangarai, and we ran the exact same stage's as the Challenge trucks. In fact, in some stage's that truck was out driving Challenge class trucks

Long stage's are fine, just keep the winch's so your average low mount will stand it.

My concern's are that the competition will get toned down to much, the like's of me and others with similar vehicles will get shunted into a class thats not that exciting. I'm not that worried, as i will just go back to trials, but the winch challenge's i have been involved in are way more fun!!!!!

I love the fact that the whole idea is to finish the hazard, not just go till you get stuck, and have a tractor drag you out on your side

My class/grouped idea stems from trials, where in order to cater for different vehicles and budgets, they have class's so you get standard trucks against standard trucks, supermodified against supermodified.

They all run on the exact same hazards.

They can do this, because all of the vehicles meet the same basic safety requirements.

I'm sort of trying to apply that to the Winch Challenges, as in my eye's at least, we seem to be trying to create a class for a huge range of vehicles that no matter wich way you try to get them to fit, they just go together??

Well, they do, and they have, but the push seems to be to allow even more standard vehicles in..........

Trev, I understand your thoughts on CLUB but the class was not introduced as a club level but a step between your hard club run and full on challenge class. If you drive any vehicle competion one day you will be walking home

Pete, I see the though and agree differing opinions are good. the 3 groups you speak of though are really three classes. Different rules equals differnt classes. Groups would be novice, vetran, junior etc, same rules, specs but placings for age/experience etc.

I believe Jeremy hit the nail on the head when he commented about forking out for a 6 point cage and twin motor winch. The difference between the Challenge guys and the club guys is ability or want to spend the big bucks.

I stand by my comments that without impeding on safety, mods should be restricted in a manner that will limit cost. That is why I say standard engines from any donor etc. If this means that a few of the challenge guys want to drop a level and can meet the specs so be it. If some one has a truck outside basic club class specs and has no experience then they go to Challenge or comply. Experience or lack there of is no reason to not go where your vehicle fits. Dont see no WRC rally cars in Group N, F1 cars in F3, etc. If there comes a time where there are more than 2 or 3 per class in their first season in that class run a novice ranking within it.

As was said above modify tracks for club class and leave the challenge class as the top tier for those that have the inclination to spend the money and go harder.

Edit: Keep the raditors in the front. It disadvantages any full body road legal truck. Cant imagine the WOF man being to happy having a radiator sitting where the rear seat once was.
[Modified by: Daniel Cleaver on July 22, 2009 07:16 PM]

Right, well this is all heading in a good direction.

There are at least 3 of us chatting here that agree that the Class in question is aimed at the tough club trucks, not just your average club truck.

So based on that could we assume the types of vehicles we are catering for are infact a closer knit group, some will be road legal, others won't, but they are all similar in capability.

Once you rule out the low end vehicles which make up your average clubbies, you start to have a class.

So how do we rule out those bottom end trucks, rule out the real top end trucks that should be in Chalenge class, and rule in the others inbetween??

I like winch spec restrictions to keep the challenge guy's out, and to give people an incentive to move up. Also to even the Club Class up and keep $$ down.

I think four point cage and harnesses for hard top, and 6 point for soft top to keep the bottom end out.

We then use Steve's rule's as a basis, and add some sensible restrictions that will keep the straightline speed down, such as certain suspension components, standard engines from any donor. In fact, those to alone would just about cripple anyone's idea of spending 20k building a non-road legal purpose built club class machine.

I still stick to my original thoughts

Min 4 point cage (engineers report required) SAFTEY

No piggy back shocks SPEED LIMITING

Factory motor with any mods(keeps speed down generally and cost saving )

Up to warrant standard of mechanical integrity SAFETY

All above would be suplements added to challenge class rules.

Quote Scott Brassey:

I still stick to my original thoughts

Min 4 point cage (engineers report required) SAFTEY

No piggy back shocks SPEED LIMITING

Factory motor with any mods(keeps speed down generally and cost saving )

Up to warrant standard of mechanical integrity SAFETY

All above would be suplements added to challenge class rules.

Also standard winch either pto if factory or of the shelf electric .

Quote Scott Brassey:

I still stick to my original thoughts..........

Factory motor with any mods(keeps speed down generally and cost saving )

What do you mean by this??

Do you mean you can do what ever you like to your factory fitted motor??

Much like what Aaron has done to his Factory fitted TD42 in his Challenge Class truck??

Have you any idea how much Hp that is pumping out?? How much it cost to build??

That rule will force people in that direction.

Or do you mean you can fit any engine to your vehicle, any engine what so ever, as long as you leave that engine in its standard form.

If its a 1uz, you can't super charge it, if its a SR20DE, you can't turbo it.

Buts if its a SR20DET, you can run it as its a factory fitted turbo, if its a 4a-gze, you can run it, as its factory supercharged.

Why not ban forced induction on petrol engine's, and non factory, or modified forced induction on diesels.

I know that the www.winch.co.nz guy's would be peeved, as they fitted a little turbo to their SWB Vitara, its making about 5psi, and just give's it that little bit more grunt to drive the 31x10.5 tyres they run. Was a lot cheaper to do that than drop a new engine in for them.

On the other hand, its a lot cheaper for some to buy a complete engine and drop it in.

As below in a prior post,

Club class should be limited to the manufactures engine or ie hilux utes came out with 4 cyl diesel and petrols so hilux ,s are limited to 4cly toyota motors with what mods you like ,not lexus v8s this would step you up a class.Patrols 6cly nissan engines etc ,
As it is cheaper to fit a turbo or super charger to a motor than to replace the motor i realise this is not as performance enhancing as dropping a V8 in, but limiting horse power ,it is safer with only a 4 point cage .Also a non certified engine change can be a hell of a dangerous animal ! and remember it seems very popular to not need warrant or reg so hence no certification the scrutineers dont have a week to check trucks ?Some of you will say my little motor cant spin 35's answer dont fit 35's fit the tyres that work.So far this season Gavin has regulary placed top 5? with an 1100 motor and no turbo and 31"s i think

In regards to your comment on Arron"s truck if you were going to spend what ever he spent you are not going to race in this class are you ?
If it as you say forces people in that direction i dont have a problem with that or just step up a group and you can run a big bock if you want.
Hope that clarifies my thoughts
Cheers Scott

Quote Scott Brassey:

As below in a prior post,

As it is cheaper to fit a turbo or super charger to a motor than to replace the motor i realise this is not as performance enhancing as dropping a V8 in, but limiting horse power ,it is safer with only a 4 point cage .Also a non certified engine change can be a hell of a dangerous animal ! and remember it seems very popular to not need warrant or reg so hence no certification the scrutineers dont have a week to check trucks ?Some of you will say my little motor cant spin 35's answer dont fit 35's fit the tyres that work.So far this season Gavin has regulary placed top 5? with an 1100 motor and no turbo and 31"s i think

I would disagree with the cheaper part of that. I swaped a CA18DE into my sj413 and including engine, box, transfer and custom adaptor for box to transer and that part of my rebuild owes me less that $1000. 98kw versus 42ishkw. There is no way I could have done anything close to that with a G13a suzuki motor. Infact I sold the G13a for 3x what I paid for the CA engine, box and computer.

I know what you are saying about the dangerous animal but lets face it Darrins 280rwkw patrol is going to put most things to shame and its certed with factory brakes etc. The issue with custom mods ir reliability and that shows in both classes, Gavin in Club and the likes of Willie in Challenge, it has a lot to do with driving attitude and actually being running at the end of the day.

As far as the rest of it goes I think we are all making the last turn to be on the same page, which is great. All we need know are a few more of the current club class guys to add there thoughts.

The engine in my suzuki can be brought for $150, the gear box $70.

Simple job of making some mounts, instant power increase.

Ruling against engine swaps puts you on the slippery slope to ruling out your tough club trucks.

The WHOLE idea of Club Class as Steve stated earlier was to INCLUDE more teams.

Ruling against engine swaps will EXCLUDE teams, both current and potential.

Don't get me wrong, difference's of opinion and all that, but i strongly dissagree with your opinion

Daniel and I have disproved the fact that Turboing and supercharging an engine properly as being a cheaper option, as will many others if you ask around.

By correct pegging of courses and some sensible suspension restrictions we can address the straightline speed concerns.

Suspension is the ONE SINGLE THING that sets Winch Challenges apart fromany other sort of 4 wheeling other than off road racing, which doesn't count eh??

I say that, because my truck is a A Class trials truck. For challenges I bolt on the winch, doors, windscreen, tin top over the cage and chuck the lockright in the back.

The catch is i have to run with my A Class suspension.

The suspension is the standard configuration, but it basically sits o the bump stops for best stability, but with heaps of down travel.

As you can imagine, going fast over rough ground, despite the fact i have 130hp in a truck that weights 900kg's is NOT an option.

Same deal with my previous truck, it weighed 1500kg, and had a 350 chev in it. Not once during the whole of the Norwest winch challenge did i take it out of 1st gear.

It was the same deal, my suspension didn't have enough up travel to traverse the ground at speed.

So lets drop the engine swap deal, and see what we can do for suspension to slow things down, as i would have to exclude half the current teams in club class by ruling out engine swaps, as well as a large amount of club trucks, and the potential Trials guys that might want to come out for a play.

How about limiting up travel as a idea to play with??

Easy to measure at Scruitineering, and easy to correct??

Max 100mm????

More people's comment's required in general, come on and speak up!!!!!!

Meeting of interested people at Manukau event for voting on rules perhaps Darren?? Thats a couple of months worth of forum discussions away still......

Quote Scott Brassey:

As below in a prior post,

As it is cheaper to fit a turbo or super charger to a motor than to replace the motor i realise this is not as performance enhancing as dropping a V8 in, but limiting horse power ,it is safer with only a 4 point cage .

Just re-read and had a idea........

If the vehicle only has a four point cage, then your engine theory applies.

If the vehicle has a non standard engine, then 6 point cage.

Sorry to pick hole's in your theory, but it's gotta be done eh???

In the case of Gavin, he WILL be forced along the route of Aaron, as he doesn't have any options for transplants. Turboing a g13a engine is a massivly expensive job. Cryo treated head as they crack heads already just with the standard exhausr system, stripping the motor to get it decompressed, custom exhaust manifold for the turbo, making tapping into an oil gallery or buying a adapter to supply oil to the turbo oh hell, they are all carburated, so buying a fuel injection kit and custom intake manifold to take the injector/s, a aftermarket computer such as a link, getting some one to wire it, time on the dyno tuning the computer etc etc etc.

As for your theory of being able to swap in an engine from the same model of vehicle, ie the Hilux, and your concerns in regard to an uncertified engine swap, you sucessfully contradicted your self in the same post.

I'm guesing you assume that because a particular model of vehicle came out with four of five different engine options that they will all bolt in, no engineering required???

Well, that is not the case. Take the Hilux for example. You are aware that the majority of those engine's have different engine mounts right??

You say you are pro swapping an engine from the same model vehicle, but in doing so you are doing the exact same modifications you would be doing to fit an engine from another source, so therefore from an enginering point of view, they are as equaly unsafe as each other.

[Modified by: Peter Hall on July 23, 2009 07:04 PM]

So we sit hereish?

Body/Chassis
any combination but meeting challenge class rules as to panels etc, and chassis mods.(or lack there of)

Suspension
One spring and shock per corner, no coilovers, remote canister etc, (maybe restricted up travel, I cant see much point)

Engine, Driveline
Any factory standard engine from any make. (probably have to relay on honesty) or no aftermarket forced induction (maybe easier to police or not??) any drive train, axles

Winch
OEM electric or PTO
After market electric single motor (upgrade motor if you wish, commercially avalible)
Aftermarket mass produced Hydraulic (power steer piggyback type)

Safety
4 point cage for hard top
6 point for soft top with tin top (or similar)
4 point harness for all
No WOF but vehicle up to resonable standard of mechanical safety ( alot of that is covered in the current rules, brakehoses and the like.)
Rest as per current rules.

Equipment
As per Challenge class including ground anchor.

Seems like a good list and one we seem to agree on. How do we canvass those that have not patricipated here? Darrin do you have an email list for entries? or something.

Quote Daniel Cleaver:

So we sit hereish?

Body/Chassis
any combination but meeting challenge class rules as to panels etc, and chassis mods.(or lack there of)

Suspension
One spring and shock per corner, no coilovers, remote canister etc, (maybe restricted up travel, I cant see much point)

Engine, Driveline
Any factory standard engine from any make. (probably have to relay on honesty) or no aftermarket forced induction (maybe easier to police or not??) any drive train, axles

Winch
OEM electric or PTO
After market electric single motor (upgrade motor if you wish, commercially avalible)
Aftermarket mass produced Hydraulic (power steer piggyback type)

Safety
4 point cage for hard top
6 point for soft top with tin top (or similar)
4 point harness for all
No WOF but vehicle up to resonable standard of mechanical safety ( alot of that is covered in the current rules, brakehoses and the like.)
Rest as per current rules.

Equipment
As per Challenge class including ground anchor.

Seems like a good list and one we seem to agree on. How do we canvass those that have not patricipated here? Darrin do you have an email list for entries? or something.

Sounds good to me

Its been said we need more people to have there say, maybe forums are not there thing, perhaps a meeting could be held where you could toss around ideas or a written tick the box option like Dion mentioned earlier. I think it would be great to here from challenge class to there veiws on how club class could be speced, this has been there sport for some years.

Just to throw another spanner in the works...

Probably the most common winch in challenge class at present is the factory Nissan PTO winch, and most of them are running it pretty near standard. Yes, they may have stronger gears in their PTO drive, a bigger drum a free-spool and other bits & pieces - but none of the mods make them go any faster. So a standard winch rule won't stop anyone turning up in their Nissan with a winch that can winch just as fast as many of the challenge class competitors - and as we know, that's pretty fast!

It may just be one of those flaws in a rule that you live with, but under a "standard winch" rule, the nissan's will have the edge on winch speed.

And of-course policing a standard winch rule aint going to be easy either, as you can't see what's inside a winch.

I like the idea of a "standard winch" rule for club class, but like writing any of these rules, it's never nearly as easy as you thought it was going to be.

Quote Jeremy Walker:

Just to throw another spanner in the works...

Probably the most common winch in challenge class at present is the factory Nissan PTO winch, and most of them are running it pretty near standard. Yes, they may have stronger gears in their PTO drive, a bigger drum a free-spool and other bits & pieces - but none of the mods make them go any faster. So a standard winch rule won't stop anyone turning up in their Nissan with a winch that can winch just as fast as many of the challenge class competitors - and as we know, that's pretty fast!

It may just be one of those flaws in a rule that you live with, but under a "standard winch" rule, the nissan's will have the edge on winch speed.

And of-course policing a standard winch rule aint going to be easy either, as you can't see what's inside a winch.

I like the idea of a "standard winch" rule for club class, but like writing any of these rules, it's never nearly as easy as you thought it was going to be.

Ahhhhh, but with the dissadvantage of massive weight. So swings and round abouts??

Quote dave haynes:

Quote Daniel Cleaver:

So we sit hereish?

Body/Chassis
any combination but meeting challenge class rules as to panels etc, and chassis mods.(or lack there of)

Suspension
One spring and shock per corner, no coilovers, remote canister etc, (maybe restricted up travel, I cant see much point)

Engine, Driveline
Any factory standard engine from any make. (probably have to relay on honesty) or no aftermarket forced induction (maybe easier to police or not??) any drive train, axles

Winch
OEM electric or PTO
After market electric single motor (upgrade motor if you wish, commercially avalible)
Aftermarket mass produced Hydraulic (power steer piggyback type)

Safety
4 point cage for hard top
6 point for soft top with tin top (or similar)
4 point harness for all
No WOF/REG but vehicle up to resonable standard of mechanical integrity ( alot of that is covered in the current rules, brakehoses and the like.)
Rest as per current rules.

Equipment
As per Challenge class including ground anchor.

Seems like a good list and one we seem to agree on. How do we canvass those that have not patricipated here? Darrin do you have an email list for entries? or something.

Sounds good to me

Yep, thats getting there alright !!!!!

I'm still not convinced on the engine spec's though, but i might just have to live with it lol

So what about you can do anything to the standard motor OR fit any other motor as long as it is standard (except for aftermarket ecu's?).

The coments I have (and have heard from other sin the challenge class) are that there needs to be some differentiation between the classes. Restrictions on suspension and winches I think is a very good way of providing that differentiation and also keeping the costs down. All the hp in the world is useless without the right suspension and one standard shock (no 4" bypasses) goes a long long way to keeping the speed down and keeps thing so much cheaper!

Keep up the discussions as this would have to rate as one of the best I've seen in a long time!

just reading some of the comments that have been posted, about both suspension and engine transplants, and trying to achieve a difference between club class and challenge class. Alot of challenge trucks out there are still running factory coils and until recently leaf springs. Some have got lifted aftermarket coils. Some trucks competing in the challenge series, still have leaf springs! I think to date there are only current competition 3 trucks out of 25ish? with full coil over setups.

Sure there is an advantage with having coil overs and remote canisters so you can go faster over ground but these trucks that are competing on simple suspension systems are still at the top of the field when it comes to placings, the difference is they finish EVERY stage with no dnf's or dns's and think about how they are going to achieve completing a hazard in the best time.

Whos to say they arent competitive with the guys running coil overs and bypass shocks? Glen bellingham in challenge series has standard 80 series springs front and i think rear? Steve has been running 4 inch coils in the front of his truck for the past 4+ years with a single shock, and only recently changed to coil overs in the rear, Joe Kessler is now running simple coil springs, lifted suspension in aarons truck, darins, keri's etc. All these guys are still very competitive. Whos to say that suspension is the be all and end all of winning competitions?

It all comes back to the way you approach each hazard and coming up with a plan of attack and thinking about it rather than just driving in to a bog and dealing with the rest of it when your winch is buried in the crap. I have seen many a codriver who has struggled to pull winch cables out when the nose of the truck is buried, that easily can chew up minutes. Another scenario is you drive up to a hazard with the pegs 20 metres apart, when helmet fever hits how many trucks have you seen drive in exacly the same tracks as the previous 5 trucks?? Winning competitions is all about using your head rather than your right foot.

As for the engine restrictions? sure put another engine in, but if you were to do that maybe have it in the rules that it be checked by a scruiteneer or engineer? eg.You could put a 350 in to a toyota or suzuki and not worry about upgrading brakes or drive line with the current rules - that would be a very fast bullet, but wait till he tries to stop it. (someone with half a brain wouldnt do this but theres always one..) That i think is more of an issue with regards to safety of both the occupants, marshalls and potential spectators. (one incident that springs to mind is darins episode at Norwest a couple of years ago when the accelerator become jammed behind the rollcage heading for the spectators until he hit the kill switch..and no darin im not saying you have half a brain but i think people get my point).

At the end of the day yes there does need to be restrictions between the 2 classes to make the club class cheaper than challenge but also make it attainable for the club class guys to move up to challenge. Alot of club trucks that i have seen so far will do very well amongst the challenge class. Winch restrictions is one, traction aids is another, engine restrictions and suspension systems. All competition vehicles in my view regardless of competition or club class should be fitted with a battery kill switch in the interests of safety.

As for the comment earlier about limiting club class to the "tough club trucks" and keeping the standard club trucks out, they are the exact guys who you want to enter these competitions. people with club trucks that want to have a go to see if they enjoy it. Eg jimbob at whangarei and norwest, simple safari with only a 4inch lift and pto, standard engine and Goodyear Wrangler tyres? Next he will be off buying simex and putting some of you other blokes to shame, why? because he thinks about how he is going to complete a stage rather than putting foot flat and dealing with the "oh shouldve done this instead".

Novel complete

Chris raises a good point - the biggest gap between challenge class and club class, is not really the vehicles, it's experience, especially considering there seems to be a move toward running both classes on the same stages. And lets face it, there's some pretty well setup cars competing in club class (with twin-motor winches, coil-overs, engine swaps etc.)

So the problem is how do we create a class that allows for people to continue to compete without being forced to move up, but that doesn't have the same 'experience barrier' that challenge class does? The only way I can see this being achieved, is through stage design. Keep the stage design for club class at a level that doesn't require the same experience of challenge class, and you create a class that is within reach of a first time competitor.

Although, without forcing competitors to move up to challenge class after a certain time limit, or after having achieved a certain number of high placings, the same experience barrier will form in club class and deter newbies from entering (which was the whole idea of club class in the first place, was it not?).

Having a novice class as a sub-class of club class might be the answer to allowing club class competitors to continue to compete in that class, and not forcing them to move up to challenge class - but without having appropriate stage design, that same experience barrier will still put people off.

It doesn't necessarily require separate stages for each class - but different routes through each stage. Where challenge class does a winch of 10 car lengths, club class takes a different line which requires only a 3 car length winch. Where challenge class goes for a long drive with some high speed sections, club class takes a tight twisty route through trees. But none of this can be set by writing a rule, it comes back to the event organisers and their stage setting team and what sort of stages they decide to set.

Read my post's, and the responses to my thoughts from earlier in regard to different class's.

We have disscussed this already

We decided already that organisers can't handle the extra burdon.

We have also already decided that as its a competition, you have to "step up" as it were, to an extent anyway, in order to compete.

If you want to use Jimbob's truck as an example of an entry level (I hope he doesn't mind), then you need to be aware that his truck is turbo charged, Tightend LSD's front and rear, 35" mudzilla's, PTO, and obviouslt lifted.

If thats the sort of entry level trucks we are talking about catering for, then we don't have any problems