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i think Steve has it right. his rules work well,dont exclude many people and are safe.

sure i have a coil sprung,V8 tough club truck...but i cant drive for shit so pete in his little zook and lekky winch is going to beat me at extreme park,northland,manukau,taupo etc anyway so... why would anyone be worried about me?? cause i might learn to drive and come mid field ?/ hahahhah cool.

im here to have fun, if i have to pay more money and enter challenge class and come last then i will, because its awesum fun.

i would rather pay less money and come mid field tho ;p

I again agree with Pete. If Jimbobs truck is the example I would call it a tough club truck, not a club truck, and a fine starting point. Same goes for the mildly modded zuks around.

As for the PTO winch speed, thems the breaks. There is also a big difference between a 8274 and a 8000lb Runva. You just make your choice.

To he guys that have comented on the proposed rules to date with mild critisism are there any options you would like to put forward? Its easy to nay say but when you start looking into the variation of vehicles that are currently competing catering for all gets difficult.

The other side is that if the club class guys start pushing the challenge guys along some of the challenge trucks might get further developed as a spin off.

To Darins comment re modded OEM engine or standard any other engine with A/M ECU this seems fair but should be extended to any carb for carb'd non OEM engines.

I know you must all be getting sick of hearing my opinion's all the time, but here's some more

The engine restriction idea just doesn't sit right with me.

I totally understand the reasons that have been put forward so far which is the basis for engine restriction.

I think someone else other than me said earlier that suspension is more important than Hp, it was Klem i think.

So if we were to include a rule that was along the line's of this (based on what you guy's have been saying):

- OEM engine's must remain unmodified
- Transplanted engines must remain unmodified

Where would that leave us??

I think it could leave us with very few option's to increase Hp easily??

Leaving all the sentimental arguments out of it in regard to the need for increased Hp, c'mon, its motor sport, not a Nanna's day out

Jimbob's Safari would be on the sidelines, so would anyone else who wanted to buy a cheapish (ok, round about $2000) bolt on Turbo Kit from Australia.

It would leave Ben's 350 Chev powered cruiser on the sideline's, as he has an aftermarket Edlebrock intake manifold that slightly increase's torque, plus a aftermarket high volume gated and baffeld sump. He's also replaced the timing chain with a gear set.

Then there's Joe, he's got a Hilux with a SR20 DET in it. It looks standard. He's running a Link Plus computer. He has the computer running everything from the oil pressure light on the dash, to the ignition timing.

The computer is also running anti lag.

How do you police Joe's engine??

He is allowed to run an aftermarket computer, so has spent countless hours on the dyno perfecting his tuning.
Anti lag is also purely a function of the aftermarket computer, where by it retards the ignition timing to the point where the unburnt fuel explode's in the exhaust manifold, causing the turbo to run at full boost all of the time, even at idle if desired. No engine modification required.

But who could tell if he had modified his engine?? Can we see the upgraded turbo internals?? Do we know how much boost that engine had as standard?? do we know the standard compression ratio??

Same with Ben's engine, who would recognise the intake manifold as not being standard?? You can't see the gear drive timing set up?? Can you tell if his heads have been ported and polished?? Can you tell if its running 14:1 compression??

Hell, that rule even means you can't put a SU carb on a zook so you can run at an angle over 20 degree's

MY POINT:

There is NO point making a rule that is impossible to police!!!!!!!

I would think that the 1 spring and shock per corner will be enough to slow thing's down??

The whole Hp restriction thing is messy eh.

I',m all for side stepping that issue and coming up with other way's to slow it down, if thats the goal.

We all know that having the most Hp isn't a guaranted top placing, in fact, it's usually not even a guarantee for finishing the event......

Hi Pete i agree 100% its pointless making rules that are impossible to inforce ,i think limiting susp upgades as per other posts is the way to go .if you were to include standard of the shelf winches no air opperated free spools ,larger drums etc ,Tyre size the same as Challenge class,no limit on lockers lsd,s ,engine transplants ,upgrades etc all ok along with some thought going into stage setting would make for a fairly even comp where the best TEAM on the day will win .I think people have that mind set that the more HP the better which may be true in some cases but hell if the stages are set right it doesnt come into it ,at the last Norwest i saw a pretty standard Zuk and a 2.8 lux driving parts of stages that the big v8s didnt even look like driving ..

Hp is King. Haha
Fun is king.
Every one does it for different reasons. Keep it i mind that it is a sport and every one wonts to get to the top.
My truck sits on nissan std coils in rear. Second hand worn out 5 inch longer that std nissan coils in front
Rubber bump stops.(all of trade me)

Team work is the best time eater in the comp

It seams that club trucks have different meanings in different town.(That nissan sounds like a club truck to me)

Lets limit the time you can work on your truck that will keep the spend down and all trucks could stay std then. HaHaHeHe

It looks like we need a nissan class only, thats what will happen if you stop suspension mods and engine upgrades.

Just food for thought
Klembo

Firstly, there are going to be some rule changes because the current rules will not work long term. That can not be argued with so don't bother! As mny of you are aware at the end of this season the rules are being rewritten so that we have competition rules and then class rules. This will mean that it is far easier to use. This does not mean we are changing the rules, just changing the way they are organised.

I really like the keep it simple priciple as it will make policing easier and also writting the rule easier.
The way I see it there are 3 goals with the rules review.
Increase safety
provide a clear difrentiation between the classes without excluding too many people.
maintainn the low cost of club class and therefore keep it atainable.

A suggestion has been made that we need to have approved track setters and head marshals to be a sanctioned event. So if 4x4 Challenges can arrange training for these key people then this is one way of ensuring the tracks a set to reduce speed and keep the level of difficulty realevant. However, it also means more beauracracy which isn't great but what other options are there?

So we introduce some simple suspension and winch restrictions and ensure stages are set accordingly, then we are safe to allow 4 point cages.

Now here's a thought. What about requiring trasplanting engine to be certified? That way the brakes have been tested? Does go against the no WOF for club class but is this a place we should require it? (just thinking out loud again)

PS As for me having half a brain, you should probably ask my coey John. (but then we all probably know the answer to that!)

Time for my 2 cents worth -

Safety: If the club class guys are going to run on the same tracks as the challenge class trucks they should have the same level of safety equipment - 6 point cages and isolation switches.
We have to have them in challenge class and as far as safety goes there should be no discrepancys between the two classes.

Quote Darin Neeley:

Now here's a thought. What about requiring trasplanting engine to be certified? That way the brakes have been tested? Does go against the no WOF for club class but is this a place we should require it? (just thinking out loud again)

Why would anyone agree with you about getting a a club class truck that is not wof'd and reg'd certed??

Thats $550 that could be spent on safety equipment!!!

We all need to keep things in perspective.

We are using these vehicle's off road.

(I can't believe i'm going to write the following)

Off road terrain is usually loose, wet and soft, in fact you can't get anymore different to the terrain on which a certifier test's the brake's of a modified vehicle, which is a hard tarseal surface, designed to provide maximum grip.

So for one, in what way is the test relevant??

Then you need to factor in the conditions we use our vehicle's in.

What happen's to your brake's if they are wet??

They don't work.

What happens if you have powerfull brake's and you stand on them hard on a soft surface??

The wheels lock up and you skid.

Logic almost suggest's that if you had a lesser braked vehicle, the chance's of a four wheelout of control lock up on a wet grassy paddock are less than if you had a vehicle with powerfull brake's. A bit like the ABS principle, reduce the braking force to maintain traction, therefore stopping more quickly than you would if the wheel's where locked up and sliding.

Lot's of hole's in that theory of mine lol

If brake's are REALLY an issue, then probably the best thing for the sport is to write a rule that specifie's no drum brake's.

We all know what happen's to those once they are wet, and that should be far more of a concern than weather you can stop three time's in a row from 100k's in under however many meters it is on the tar seal.

Hope no one's getting grumpy with me here, these are all just my thoughts at the time of writing. I'm pretty quiet usually

Quote "DieselBoy":

So far it looks like the main new rules might be:

standard winch's with no modification
one spring and shock per corner
4 point roll cage
4 point harness's

I believe those are on top of the current rules that we have been using to date.
keep big budget trucks in challenge class.

well im out of club class if the "standard winch" rule comes in as i dont thinkyou could say the Gilies pto that came out on a select few fj40' is "standard equipment"

in fact to make it easy im just gonna flag the whole fkn debate and go challenge class less bickering about the trivial shit and i can have just as much fun doing that even tho it costs more and i break more shit and come last

Peter I think you just lost the plot with your last statement! Better brakes means you have more chance of controlling wheel lockup. If you increase the pad surface area then with less pedal force you can provide greater braking force at the wheel. Less pedal force is easier to modulate and therefore you will get better real stopping power to the ground. The less traction you have the more important this is and so the complete opposite of what you have just said is the reality. ABS is not about reducing the stopping power it is about controlling it.
You are also missing a very important point. If you increase the potential speed of a vehicle then you are increasing the potential load on the braking system. So any increase in power should result in an increase in potential braking power. I have done it making truck lighter, different pads and altering bias. This has resulted in brakes that now work. To suggest that it is safer offroad with less braking power shows that you are either plain and simple shit stirring or that you fundamentally don't understand how things work!
We do not need to do anything around brakes as it is covered by the requiremnt to be to WOF standard of mechanical integrity. Upgrade the power then you must upgrade the brakes. Just because you don't need a Cert doesn't remove the requirement to be able to get one. We should be able to take any truck and get an engineer to check it and it should pass the cert!

Wopass, you have hit the nail on the head. We are not stopping anyone from racing. We are just trying to make sure that we don't end up with the same situation that has happened with the current challenge class. We don't want the Club class to progress to a point that people won't enter because of the trucks being to developed. To be frank your truck is way beyond what club class was intended for anyway.
Maybe a way around it is to have a rookie award for both club and challenge classes.
Also I think you will find that the entry fees will be the same for both classes at most events. Mine was, Manukau is and I am assuming Taupo will be as well.

Time for a bit of a reality check.
Lets don't let insignificant points get in the way of a very good discussion.
Lets concentrate on what very good ideas that are in discussion.

Suspension.
One standard shocks per corner. No bypass and no remote canisters.
One spring.
This allows coil overs like Bernie has as that is no real advantage or massive cost involved so fits the spirit of what we are trying to achieve.

Winches.
Standard winches only.
Motor upgrades but single motor only.
Multiple winches allowed but can only use one at a time. I looked at running 2 winches instead of a twin motor so no doubt someone else is thinking about it as well.
PTO if a factory option.
So Bens winch is OK as it is off an FJ40 and his truck is an FJ40 chassis AND body.

The whole engine thing is the one causing the problems and afew options have been discussed. They are;

Anything goes.

Anything goes but if you upgrade power significantly then must have 6 point cage.

Trasplants must be a unmodified (within guidelines) factory spec engine from any other vehicle, but can modify the factory engine however you like.

Factory engine but do anything to it.

Factory engine no mods.

Transplant OK but must be certified.

Rather than discuss the options, maybe we should be talking about why we want the restrictions and whether in general the restrictions are even needed. Maybe it is not really worth the hassle of developing a rule about engine at all and leave it as for the challenge class??????

Quote Darin Neeley:

Winches.
Standard winches only.
Motor upgrades but single motor only.
Multiple winches allowed but can only use one at a time. I looked at running 2 winches instead of a twin motor so no doubt someone else is thinking about it as well.
PTO if a factory option.
So Bens winch is OK as it is off an FJ40 and his truck is an FJ40 chassis AND body.

mine actually came off a wrecker truck, but was on a 40 before that, as the Gillies winch was also put on many vehicles and in many applications, as well as being put onto a select few 40's back in the day.

i dont know that it was a "factory " item, more likely some dealers had them fitted as after market extras? i know the military got them fitted to thierss but was that from factory?? who knows.

still goin challenge class, same fun, less hassles

Heres a idea: Two classes,

:Club class - anything not road legal

:Challenge class - Everything else(but road legal of course)

Both classes run under 4x4 challenges present rules

Quote Tim Fensom:

Heres a idea: Two classes,

:Club class - anything not road legal

:Challenge class - Everything else(but road legal of course)

Both classes run under 4x4 challenges present rules

How does that cater for those entering the sport or wanting to use their relatively standard vehicle or those who are competing in the current club class?

The limitations in Challenge class are not about being road legal but around our self imposed regulations around a 'type' of vehicle we want to race. Allowing non WOF trucks in Challenge will not have any effect on the level of modification and will only save a few hundred dollars. So is really not even an option. Under the current Cert rules you can basically legalise any mod if it is done correctly. I've had dicussions about IFS with 16" of travel and rear suspension with 36" of travel and there is no reason it can't be done. Space frame etc etc can be done legally as can basically any engine / drive train you want and any tyre size. You just have to be smart about it and work with your engineer and not try to hide stuff. ie have a professional approach to building your truck right.

How does that cater for those entering the sport or wanting to use their relatively standard vehicle or those who are competing in the current club class?

The limitations in Challenge class are not about being road legal but around our self imposed regulations around a 'type' of vehicle we want to race. Allowing non WOF trucks in Challenge will not have any effect on the level of modification and will only save a few hundred dollars. So is really not even an option. Under the current Cert rules you can basically legalise any mod if it is done correctly. I've had dicussions about IFS with 16" of travel and rear suspension with 36" of travel and there is no reason it can't be done. Space frame etc etc can be done legally as can basically any engine / drive train you want and any tyre size. You just have to be smart about it and work with your engineer and not try to hide stuff. ie have a professional approach to building your truck right

Darin, Did you even read what I wrote?
Where does it say anything about challenge class not having a wof?
And how would having just 2 classes hinder people entering into the sport?

Quote Darin Neeley:

Quote Tim Fensom:

Heres a idea: Two classes,

:Club class - anything not road legal

:Challenge class - Everything else(but road legal of course)

Both classes run under 4x4 challenges present rules

How does that cater for those entering the sport or wanting to use their relatively standard vehicle or those who are competing in the current club class?

The limitations in Challenge class are not about being road legal but around our self imposed regulations around a 'type' of vehicle we want to race. Allowing non WOF trucks in Challenge will not have any effect on the level of modification and will only save a few hundred dollars. So is really not even an option. Under the current Cert rules you can basically legalise any mod if it is done correctly. I've had dicussions about IFS with 16" of travel and rear suspension with 36" of travel and there is no reason it can't be done. Space frame etc etc can be done legally as can basically any engine / drive train you want and any tyre size. You just have to be smart about it and work with your engineer and not try to hide stuff. ie have a professional approach to building your truck right.

Hey Darin, I sort of did loose the plot with the brake's, but my point was that our brake's are marginal after the first bog anyway.

In the heat of competition have you carefully dried your brake's out before you stuck your foot up it along a fast section??

Eitherways, point taken, if you have monster brake's to start with, the reduction in effectiveness will be less once wet and muddy when compared to lesser brake's, ie if they were crap to begin with, you will have nothing once they are full of mud.

Take this with a smile, as it's hard to translate that over the net, and have a think about the point i could be trying to make

There is a fundimental problem here.

Why was challenge class diminishing in competitors??

As you basically said, it was just to damed expensive for the average 4 wheeler to build a road legal truck capable of competeing in that class.

You could enter your average road legal truck weekend warrior style machine, but it wouldn't survive. I remember a fellow club class competitor at Norwest, much older and wiser than me telling that he had entered a winch challenge or 2 back in the day in his club truck, and decided that they are just absolute truck fuckers.

The developement of the club class has allowed him to compete again with out the risk of trashing his truck.

I just don't understand where you get your hang up's from about the no wof/reg and cert thing??

Read back through the thread, we disscussed why the no WOF, Reg and Cert things is so critical for club class to be effective.

It is FAR more of an issue than a couple of hundred bucks as you said, it is in fact a FUNDIMENTAL issue.

Think about this:

A balljoint break's at 100K/h during competition.......

Both occupants of vehicle are dead.

Vehicle is Wof'd, Reg'd and certed.

Does that change anything?? The people are still dead.

Do you think that the WOF people will be held responsible??

Do you think the Cert man will be held responsible??

I can tell you straight up, that they will take one look at the environment which the vehicle was being used in, yes, thats a COMPETITION environment, and the Wof and Reg and Cert won't even be worth the space it takes up on the windscreen.

So if your hang up is based on a liability issue, that some how by having a WOF is going to transfer the liability from the scruitineer/event organiser to the WOF issuer/certfier if catastrophic mechanical failure occur's, can you explain how that works????

From what i understand from car rallying experience, the second you enter a competition, all of that become's irrelevant.

As i said at the start, take that all in a good natured way, its just my opinion which is worth exactly what you paid for it, and i still have a lot to learn

[Modified by: Peter Hall on August 05, 2009 01:06 PM]

Quote Tim Fensom:

Heres a idea: Two classes,

:Club class - anything not road legal

:Challenge class - Everything else(but road legal of course)

Both classes run under 4x4 challenges present rules

Dont take this the wrong way but go back and read the first post in this topic. That is currently/effectivly what is happening and the idea of a second class is a lower level as a entry to the sport.

Quote Daniel Cleaver:

Quote Tim Fensom:

Heres a idea: Two classes,

:Club class - anything not road legal

:Challenge class - Everything else(but road legal of course)

Both classes run under 4x4 challenges present rules

Dont take this the wrong way but go back and read the first post in this topic. That is currently/effectivly what is happening and the idea of a second class is a lower level as a entry to the sport.

And it also run's into other problem's .

All thing's as they are, with both class's running the same courses......

Why would anyone bother to build a road legal winch challenge truck if you could build a non-road legal truck. and do the same stuff??

So why would anyone bother to enter challenge class??

Think we are getting off topic and covering stuff that's already been discussed??

[Modified by: Peter Hall on August 05, 2009 07:51 PM]

I dont understand why people are looking at the cert/WOF thing as a liability reducer. Its not. Period. A WOF is only good until you exit the shop that issued it. They have no control over what you do to your car after you leave and can not be held responsible. About the only way you could go the WOF guy after a crash would be if you drove out of his garage and 10 seconds down the road had a catastophic faliure of part he should have inspected. The law states to drive a car on the road the DRIVER must ensure it is up to WOF standards.

I thought the WOF thing was due to a lot of the original events having "touring" sections moving from site to site.

This is topic is not about changing the Challenge class rules but creatng some easy to use differences between the existing Challenge Class and the developing Club class. (remebering not to hung up onthe name, we could call the class 1 &2 for all the name holds)

It seems to me the main sticking point is engine mods/swaps. Its been discussed and I feel, unless there is a new idea that needs to be discussed, the rules committee need to make the final call. It is likely to adversly effect someone but thats life. Play by the rules or play a different game.

None of this is intended to offend anyone I just feel a lot of the last few posts miss the point or are making a big deal of irrelavent stuff, and its ruining a good grounded discussion.

I just want to be able to run my truck, and the way things are going, i wouldn't be able to.

Hahaha suck's for me eh

I want to be able to run the same stage's as the challenge guy's with easier winch's.

My truck is what i would call a typical club truck at the tougher end of the scale.

Spec's are:

Not road legal
6 point cage
Harness's
Engine and transmisson transplant
Custom Fourwheel disc brake conversion
Aftermarket of the shelf suspension
Custom powersteering conversion
Custom rockhopper transfercase gear set.
Standard off the shelf electric winch.

The rest of the vehicle complies with the 4x4 Challenge's rule's, kill switch/isolator, door's, roof, windscreen etc etc etc

There's nothing out of the ordinary about the vehicle, in fact with the correct lights on the rear, and a properly made draglink, it could be certed and put on the road. Would need re-vinning etc etc.

Just don't see why the like's of this vehicle could be excluded????