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Quote Tim Fensom:

How does that cater for those entering the sport or wanting to use their relatively standard vehicle or those who are competing in the current club class?

The limitations in Challenge class are not about being road legal but around our self imposed regulations around a 'type' of vehicle we want to race. Allowing non WOF trucks in Challenge will not have any effect on the level of modification and will only save a few hundred dollars. So is really not even an option. Under the current Cert rules you can basically legalise any mod if it is done correctly. I've had dicussions about IFS with 16" of travel and rear suspension with 36" of travel and there is no reason it can't be done. Space frame etc etc can be done legally as can basically any engine / drive train you want and any tyre size. You just have to be smart about it and work with your engineer and not try to hide stuff. ie have a professional approach to building your truck right

Darin, Did you even read what I wrote?
Where does it say anything about challenge class not having a wof?
And how would having just 2 classes hinder people entering into the sport?

Tim my point is that if you just have a road legal and a non road legal then why would anyone bother with the extra complience of a WOF etc? Basically everyone involved in Challenge class sees it being legal as a fundemental and I know you never said anything about changing that but the goal here is to provide a safe, cheap easy to police class that is at an entry / lower level of competition. (don't like lower as it suggests less important and that isn't th case)
Challenge Class works as it is BUT it is not a cheap to build / maintain a truck and that is where Club class comes in. So to make the only difference being legal / non legal and everything else the same would mean challenge class would cease to exist virtually over night. That would then make the Club class unatainable due to the average level of the trucks.

Earlier in the day, a wise man pointed out to me the following:

Quote:

People in club class aren't building trucks to suit the class.... They're looking for more events to have a go in with their existing trucks.

I think that's a very important concept to keep in mind.

Quote Peter Hall:

I just want to be able to run my truck, and the way things are going, i wouldn't be able to.

Hahaha suck's for me eh

I want to be able to run the same stage's as the challenge guy's with easier winch's.

My truck is what i would call a typical club truck at the tougher end of the scale.

Spec's are:

Not road legal
6 point cage
Harness's
Engine and transmisson transplant
Custom Fourwheel disc brake conversion
Aftermarket of the shelf suspension
Custom powersteering conversion
Custom rockhopper transfercase gear set.
Standard off the shelf electric winch.

The rest of the vehicle complies with the 4x4 Challenge's rule's, kill switch/isolator, door's, roof, windscreen etc etc etc

There's nothing out of the ordinary about the vehicle, in fact with the correct lights on the rear, and a properly made draglink, it could be certed and put on the road. Would need re-vinning etc etc.

Just don't see why the like's of this vehicle could be excluded????

Peter I think what you have described is the exact type of vehicle we are trying to cater for and I don't think anyone is seriously saying otherwise? Well that is how I see it.
The whole discussion around engines is about the reduced safety level with a 4 point cage and whether track setting is enough to allow this.
I also think the whole engine thing is a very difficult topic as the goal is to allow for cost saving transplants but also keep it so that a standard truck isn't majorly disadvantaged and so needs a costly transplant!
We also don't want to have a rule that people build trucks to, then find it doesn't work and have to change it outlawing existing vehicles.

You also should be aware I'm putting suggestions out there to stimulate conversation. Some of them maybe completely off track but they get people thinking. I think you are all pretty aware I agree with pushing the limits as what I build and race myself isn't exactly standard. However I also think that there needs to be a place where guys can race their near standard truck and not feel like they are out of place.

I also think that in the not to distant future we will be doing this all again with a third class BUT until there are people there doing it we won't go through this process. Imagine doing this 12 months ago without the experience that all of us now have with this class!

We need to be very sure of the spirit of the rules we are writing and be very sure that just because you interpret something doesn't mean that is the fact. We are here to have fun and every rule should be viewed with the spirit of the competition in mind. This very grey but that is how it is.

Quote Peter Hall:

Earlier in the day, a wise man pointed out to me the following:

Quote:

People in club class aren't building trucks to suit the class.... They're looking for more events to have a go in with their existing trucks.

I think that's a very important concept to keep in mind.

Agreed, but safety always comes first!

Peter, Re Brakes, I can’t believe you wrote that ether. lol

Ben -( in fact to make it easy im just gonna flag the whole fkn debate and go challenge class less bickering about the trivial shit and i can have just as much fun doing that even tho it costs more and i break more shit and come last).

Who’s bickering? I see quiet a healthy discussion about something that is obviously a passionate subject for most, and why you would not want to be apart of the rule making for a new class of which you have competed in beats me.
As Klem said, the fun part is foremost, In fact, for the blokes I run with, that’s all it is, we go out of our way for that, (just check out our campsite) and if we don’t get it, we would probably go somewhere else. I anit seen a squabble yet, not even a hint of one.

Just tryin to think outside the square (again)
How bout something novel like a case by case basis, can that work.? ,how bout, you comply with the basic winch challenge rules except for the WOF, Rego and Cert this would allow for the bush/club truck. You could have a system where you “apply” to run in club class, if the truck is deemed “in the sprit” let him run, you could have a rule “guide line” rather than rules set in stone.

Bernie

Quote Bernie Konz:

Just tryin to think outside the square (again)
How bout something novel like a case by case basis, can that work.? ,how bout, you comply with the basic winch challenge rules except for the WOF, Rego and Cert this would allow for the bush/club truck. You could have a system where you “apply” to run in club class, if the truck is deemed “in the sprit” let him run, you could have a rule “guide line” rather than rules set in stone.

Bernie

Now I think this has merit, so it would be the existing club class competitors that decided if you made it in or not?
Would my truck with 35's and a rad on the back be "in the spirit"? bearing in mind its not even a bush truck, its a rock crawler, all 150hp of it
Perhaps you could be allowed to enter one event, as a "trial event" to help with the "in or out" decision

Jafa

Perhaps you could be allowed to enter one event, as a "trial event" to help with the "in or out" decision

Jafa

why not

you could have a system where ether the high rarkie i.e. challenges inc decides or the existing competitors, ether/or

Bernie

why try and reinvent the wheel?
if its not broken why fix it.
both times the class has been run at norwest there has been no problems.
the courses are set as to limit the vehicles speed and also to cater for the different winches. to run 2 different sub classes with there own courses is silly as we have problems getting the marshells as it is now. the reason i want to compete in the club class is that the guys in the challenge class only seen to compete in the comps and don't do club runs anymore. hell i still want to go and have fun when i want and not have to worry if its going to be ready for the next comp.
i brought my truck already modified, engine diffs, suspension and body. i have done a lot of mods to it already at home to keep costs down, maybe one day i'll play with the big boys but its so f##king expensive and couldn't afford it.
to un modify my truck would be a joke and wont happen.
its a club truck, lockers, 36'' simex and v8 chev thats what it was brought for and used as. all i want is to go out and have fun and if the competition gets to serious and looses its fun whats the point.
forcing people to move up will just lose them from the fold.
the orginal starting point for club class was to keep people moving up if they wanted and keep the challenge class going. which has started to dwindle in numbers.

what about scaping the classes as they are and go to trails classes. they all drive the same tracks. just different scoring back at base camp. d class has to be wof and rego?

Quote Bernie Konz:

Peter, Re Brakes, I can’t believe you wrote that ether. lol

Ben -( in fact to make it easy im just gonna flag the whole fkn debate and go challenge class less bickering about the trivial shit and i can have just as much fun doing that even tho it costs more and i break more shit and come last).

Who’s bickering? I see quiet a healthy discussion about something that is obviously a passionate subject for most, and why you would not want to be apart of the rule making for a new class of which you have competed in beats me.
As Klem said, the fun part is foremost, In fact, for the blokes I run with, that’s all it is, we go out of our way for that, (just check out our campsite) and if we don’t get it, we would probably go somewhere else. I anit seen a squabble yet, not even a hint of one.

Bernie

im all for the healthy discussion mate dont get me wrong, im not throwing my toys out

i just see a bunch of ideas being thrown into the pot to change something that in my eyes doesnt need changing, as i stated early on in the piece, i think the way it was and has been run by several clubs now with the way Steve started it is perfect. if it aint broke dont fix it.

i do hear a lot of "he shouldnt be allowed in club class" aimed at a few of us and fair enough i have a pretty cool truck :8): and if i was winning instead of comming last i could understand it and i was going to head to challenge class anyway when i get a grip on driving and iron out all the bugs (which theres a lot of !!) so im just doing it sooner rather than later, ill compete in challenge class and my NANA racing team as Ashley would call me, will come last there as well but i dont give a toss cos im out there having fun and thats the most important thing for me.

that and if im in challenge class you cant officially beat me again or that larry landrover, or pete... or any of you!! Hahhaha.

I may be missing something but i cant for the life of me see why we just dont run the rules that are currently in place ,just formalize them ,they have proved that they work why fix something thats not broken . as they stand they include almost all trucks that are now competeing and every club truck that is out there now or in the future could be made to comply with the minimum of cost .as time goes by they can be added to and altered and as long as any future changes dont exclude current competitors and there is a lead in time of say at least 12 months whats the problem? ,All this talk about limiting engine transplants.shocks winches etc is getting away from the original point of the club class .it was for the joe bloggs with a capable truck to come out and have ago and enjoy the experence .I know of quite a few people in several clubs who with a bit of back yard work have built a fairley well set up truck they are safe but will never be road legal ,have twin shocks alightly modified winch but under proposed rules they will be out ,Sorry but that was Not what was intended when we started this .As for the level playing field ,that can be achieved by the track setters and will always be overcome by good team work and the old saying (think before you leap) This may make me sound like a bit of a prick ,but if we were to addopt the current rules then dont winge and moan if it doesnt suit your particular agenda ,go spend the months organising your own event ..Sure the current rules may not please everyone but its a start it gives people a mark to aim for and with little cost does what it was intended to do Include most people .".rant over"

people that come into ANY sport shouldn't think that they could win on their first attempt, granted some do. the people that place in the top spots have got there by hard work and team effort, modification, trial and error and seat time. to move the goal posts to suit the beginners disadvantage those that have put in the hard work first. the rules work as is. if you want to get better placings then do what everyone else has and harden up

Whats all this about, we introduced this class for everyone to have some FUN and allow people with all sorts of trucks to enjoy a competion. As most people do they start of with somthing of a lower key and then get the bug and start playing and modifing as they can afford to. What about Nigel and Wayne in the challange class in suzs running up against V8 nissans is'nt that the same and there are NO special rules for those two. I agree with the cage rules and saftey as the club class trucks are progressing in mods we set the tracks harder. Its just starting to p me off after all the time steve and a few people have taking to get this class properly up and running you guys are coming in and trying to dictate to us and look at controlling everything and thats what you said you wernt going to do.

Quote stephen reed:

I may be missing something but i cant for the life of me see why we just dont run the rules that are currently in place ,just formalize them ,they have proved that they work why fix something thats not broken . as they stand they include almost all trucks that are now competeing and every club truck that is out there now or in the future could be made to comply with the minimum of cost .as time goes by they can be added to and altered and as long as any future changes dont exclude current competitors and there is a lead in time of say at least 12 months whats the problem? ,All this talk about limiting engine transplants.shocks winches etc is getting away from the original point of the club class .it was for the joe bloggs with a capable truck to come out and have ago and enjoy the experence .I know of quite a few people in several clubs who with a bit of back yard work have built a fairley well set up truck they are safe but will never be road legal ,have twin shocks alightly modified winch but under proposed rules they will be out ,Sorry but that was Not what was intended when we started this .As for the level playing field ,that can be achieved by the track setters and will always be overcome by good team work and the old saying (think before you leap) This may make me sound like a bit of a prick ,but if we were to addopt the current rules then dont winge and moan if it doesnt suit your particular agenda ,go spend the months organising your own event ..Sure the current rules may not please everyone but its a start it gives people a mark to aim for and with little cost does what it was intended to do Include most people .".rant over"

Thats right on the money i reckon.

I tried to suggest that right at the start of the discussion, there was a lot of disagreement with that.

But i still agree that that is the best way to start, just formalize what we have at the moment and work from there.

So let's go back to Darin's 1st post which outline's the topic's for discussion, as some people are starting to loose the plot:

Quote Darin:

OK, we need to sort out some vehicle specs for club class.
As it currently stands someone could build a copy of the most modified Challenge class truck and compete in club class. I think this is unfair and not the intention of the class.
I believe that we in effect have 2 types competing in the class.
One is the guys who have a good club truck that want to do some competitions but don't really have any desire to compete at a higher level.
The other are the guys who have built a new truck and have never raced before but want to get started and will eventually step up to Challenge class.
I don't see any problem with either of these approaches and I think both need to be catered for.
So is the answer to bring in some vehicle specs that apply after your first season racing? That way you can have a go in virtually anything like at present and if you like it decide where you are going to go?
I think that the original concept was for guys to be able to race their relatively standard truck and not be too disadvantaged. Along those lines you would then be restricted to a production type vehicle so no major changes to suspension, diffs, wheel base, body etc. But you'd be allowed normal engine conversions etc. Under this sort of scenario what about lockers, tyres sizes, winches etc?
The other side of it would be that as a novice you can run anything that complies with the Challenge rules but after your first season you must run Challenge class.
We need to have these discussions now as the rules need to be set at the end of the year for next year and we don't want people to build trucks and then find they can't race them.
Is this the sort of thing guys think should happen or am I way of the mark?

After reading through the thread to date, working through Darin's topic's step by step, this is where we seem to be at:

Quote Darin:

As it currently stands someone could build a copy of the most modified Challenge class truck and compete in club class. I think this is unfair and not the intention of the class.

The consensus thus far is that it isn't an issue, people's thoughts range from club class being a "fun" class so it doesn't matter, through to the idea that the biggest Hp and the best suspension doesn't count as much as reliability and team work, through to Human nature, in that there is no real prestige in walking over everyone in the class when you should really be playing with the big boy's.

Quote Darin:

I believe that we in effect have 2 types competing in the class.
One is the guys who have a good club truck that want to do some competitions but don't really have any desire to compete at a higher level.
The other are the guys who have built a new truck and have never raced before but want to get started and will eventually step up to Challenge class.

This idea was well played with, in fact we came up with the potential for 3 class's with in club class.
So far, the consensus of opinion is that logistically, it is not workable, even if the class's were only on paper and all trucks ran the same club class line's.
It seem's that most prefer the idea that you can compete in clubclass for as long as you want, no pressure to move up if you don't want to, and if Challenge class is getting to much, to expensive, what ever, you can come and join club class.

Quote Darin:

So is the answer to bring in some vehicle specs that apply after your first season racing? That way you can have a go in virtually anything like at present and if you like it decide where you are going to go?.

Again, as above the consensus i of opinion thus far is that there is to be no "push" to move anywhere from club class. If you enter your S1 landrover with a capstan winch, you can continue running that vehicle for as long as you like.

Nobody seem's to like the idea of rule's dictating what they can and can't to their vehicle's, unless it's purely for safety .

Quote Darin:

I think that the original concept was for guys to be able to race their relatively standard truck and not be too disadvantaged. Along those lines you would then be restricted to a production type vehicle so no major changes to suspension, diffs, wheel base, body etc. But you'd be allowed normal engine conversions etc. Under this sort of scenario what about lockers, tyres sizes, winches etc?

This has caused the greatest debate.

There has been all sorts of idea's put forward, but the consensus so far has been that engine's, suspension, drive train etc are open. The reason's for that were very sound, based on cost of a re-power versus "working" a standard fitted engine, same with the axle's and drive train.

To date, the suggestion of standard winch's for the classw i.e, OEM PTO or electric, unmodified aftermarket electric, hydraulic, basically ruling out big dollar customised winch's.

The consensus on traction aid's was that there should be no restriction and tyre size as per 4x4challenge's rules.

Quote Darin:

The other side of it would be that as a novice you can run anything that complies with the Challenge rules but after your first season you must run Challenge class.

Consensus of opinion so far is that there should be no "push" to move up, as it causes problem's with the non road legal truck's, people's freedom of choice, and is not in the spirit of clubclass.

Quote Darin:

We need to have these discussions now as the rules need to be set at the end of the year for next year and we don't want people to build trucks and then find they can't race them.

It's important to for everyone to note this line!!!!!

We are just discussing idea's, nothing's formal until the end of the year. All that will be probably taken from this forum at the end of the day is a "feeling" about what the club class current and potential competitor's would like.

Someone also pointed out that club class truck's at this stage of the game at least, aren't being "built" as such, more they are being adapted from other 4x4 discipline's to meet the rule's so people can come out and play.

I think thats the gut's of it all so far.

Draw your own conclusion's, but to me, it seems we are still in line with what we are currently doing, which are the basic rule's Steve put in place back at day 1.

I don't care if i'm up against a 100k purpose built machine running 40" tyre's with a nitro fueled v8, chance's are that reliability will let it down, hell the driver might throw it bog to hard and the front wheel's will fall off

Keep smiling everyone

[Modified by: Peter Hall on August 09, 2009 08:08 PM]

too much time on your hands dude

but yea what he said

Below is some coments from Glen Raymond aka Larry the Landrover.

Hi Darin

Sorry having trouble getting on the site so if you don’t mind can you send this through for me.

I think Steve is right on the money keep to the rules we have now, most of the guys that I’ve spoken to have the same idea and their happy and it shows as most if not all come back to have another go!!!!

I rather do it than talk about it.

LETS FORMALIZE IT

Glen Raymond

Quote Tony Smith:

Whats all this about, we introduced this class for everyone to have some FUN and allow people with all sorts of trucks to enjoy a competion. As most people do they start of with somthing of a lower key and then get the bug and start playing and modifing as they can afford to. What about Nigel and Wayne in the challange class in suzs running up against V8 nissans is'nt that the same and there are NO special rules for those two. I agree with the cage rules and saftey as the club class trucks are progressing in mods we set the tracks harder. Its just starting to p me off after all the time steve and a few people have taking to get this class properly up and running you guys are coming in and trying to dictate to us and look at controlling everything and thats what you said you wernt going to do.

Tony if you bothered to read what is happening you will see that no one is telling anyone what to do. This discussion is being held so that we can find out what people want. The whole point is that 4x4 Challenges has been asked to formalize a set of rules and we want to ensure it is done right. For that to happen we need peoples feedback. To say that people are been told what to do is emotive crap based on a lack of understanding. This discussion has been so good because people are rationally discussing the issues that are facing us.

Also the points I raised at the very beginning were and are discussion points only. They are not part of any secret agenda and no one is trying to push the sport in any direction. But I am trying to direct a discussion to achieve a lot of input and hopefully it leads to a consesus.

Maybe the way to go is to formalise the current rules and then have a Club Class eligibilty comittee. That could be 3 or 4 people who's job it is to say who is eligibale and who isn't. They could then have some guidelines about that gives those looking from the outside an idea of what is suitable vehicle but doesn't make anything inelegible?