Forum

Firstly, this is a discussion, this is not notification that things are changing. Things are changing which is why we need this discussion. Please make coments that are constructive and are about how we can work together to keep growing the numbers. Remember that we have had 20 or more trucks at every event this year but that we have a large group or trucks that haven't raced due to offroad racing or rebuilding etc. And these are guys with many years experience doing WC.

It is becoming aparent that there is a problem with the current Club and Challenge class rules.
Now first and foremost the goal is to promote more people to compete AND to have it safe and fair. The other very important thing is to make it easy for event organisers.

So with that in mind, I have been talking to a few people and this is the 'feeling' as I see it.
Currently the Club Class is too open with a big gap between those at the top and those at the bottom.
Challenge Class is very restrictive and promotes very similar trucks to race and a lot of club class trucks would struggle to move into challenge class.

My thoughts on Challenge are
It is a production type rule so it has to be restrictive.
Production classes by the name do restrict development and it always becomes a case of everyone being very similar in approach. The current crop of new trucks that are getting smaller with more power and bigger winches is a classic example.
A down side can be cheque book racing.
WOF, Rego LVV etc are essential to maintaining this class.

My thoughts on Club are
This should be so the average guy can compete in the his club type truck / daily driver.
The coarses should be such that a 4 point cage is all that is required ie speed kept down etc.
There should be no restriction on who competes so you can stay there as long as you like.
Trucks that are too modified shouldn't be in this class.
WOF etc should be required or the truck should be to WOF spec minus lights etc like a lot of bush trucks are. It is about intention not legality.
Tyres maybe should be limited to 35.5?

This then creates the need for a third class, lets call it Modified.
The intention of this class would be to allow you to race in a truck that you have built for whatever purpose. Maybe a trails truck with a winch or an offroad race truck with a winch.
So as long as it has 4x4, a winch and meets all the other safety rules it should be able to race.
Eg it should have 1/2 doors (or equivilant sid eprotection), a roof, a body, 6 point rollcage etc. Space frame chassis, mix and match bodies etc are all allowed.
Tyres would have to be restricted but maybe to a slightly bigger size (37.5 maybe)?
The goal of this class is to allow guys with a focus on something else, to still do winch challenges without a huge amount of COST, and still keep it fair for others.

Lets be clear here that this is a discussion about how to make things easy, cheaper and to encourage more people to get involved. At present the Club class seems to be effecting the Challenge class due to no real differences between them. It would be very hard to create these differences and still allow everyone currently racing to continue.
Imediately Bernie, Dan and Wayne MacKenzie come to mind as people with trycks that don't really fit Club class or Challenge and no one will ever say that they shouldn't be able to race or that what they are doing is intentionally unfair. (or unfair at all)
So to ensure we protect what has been started with the Club Class and revive the Challenge Class do we need a third class with some very basic rules (like club class) that allows the more extreme side of the sport to florish?
Have your say and then we can discuss it further at the meeting in Taupo.

Hi Darin, Tony and i were talking about this only last weekend .and we think there is a need for 3 classes to make it a more even playing field .I peronally think that if we were to limit tyre sizes or increase them for 1 class then it would make track setting a nightmare if we were wanting to run all 3 classes in one comp ,having one class able to have a 4 point cage is easy to cater for ,a few gates here and there a comp winches and its quite easy to slow things down and remove the risk of roll overs .My thoughts were Club class" tyre max 36.5 ,of the shelf winches (no air free spools etc) ,factory engines (no hi luxes or nissans running v8s etc) 4 point cage,truck must of been first reg as a road legal 4wd (no buggies etc) must have current wof /reg .the current club class as it stands today would be renamed (say modified?) running current specs and rules (no reg/wof etc ,body engine, chassis, swaps all ok. then the challenge class as it stands today This would cater for almost all of the trucks that are either competing now or wanting to .As a side note there has been 1 or 2 moans about a couple of the current competitors in the club class at present ,while i dont believe we should be making people go up a class at the end of the day the Event director of any comp has the final say as to who can or cant compete.

What about greater chassis mods and things like the need for factory inner guards. This is something that the guys going offroad racing have trouble with so opening the regs on these may make it easy for them and get a few back?

I like the 'first registered as a 4wd' thing. That allows for alot of imagination but you must have something that was legal at some stage. How far do you take this? Must have 50%of chassis? Full chassis rail (similar to current challenge rule) Body B pillar foward resemble OEM? A lot of options really.

At the very real risk of placing my budget built zook into a nearly anything goes class...........

I have to agree with the above sentiments in relation to the current classes and the fact the club class is covering to broad a group.

Thinking (prob the same as above really)

Modified/outlaw/class1
4wd, winch, 6 point cage (tin top), 37" tyres max, 2+ seats (lets not make the navi run the whole thing) make it look like a MC class ish (4x4) vehicle from 1/2 b pillar forward including half doors, gaurds and grill, (why, gaurds etc , well why not.) Radiator where ever you can make it fit, no windscreen if you dont want but must were goggles if no screen.

Challenge/production/class2
As it stands Reg WOF LVV Cert etc perhaps standard wheel base.

Club/Class 3
Started life as a road going 4x4, factory engine and induction, factory chassis, factory diffs, factory style suspension (leafs, coils whatever) modded if you like but still same style. Factory body work b pillar forward.

Below is the ORANZ Class 6 specs. This could be a very good starting point for the Modified class?
Maybe something like that but without the need for certs and wof? (but must be to standard?)

SPECIFICATION – Restricted to volume production commercial or
recreational vehicles. Must be certified road legal, registered and
warranted to qualify.
(b) ENGINE and TRANSMISSIONS – Replacement engines and
transmissions from any automotive manufacturer are permitted. Any
conversion must be certified. The engines may run turbos or super-
chargers.
(c) BODY – The body shall be of the same OEM (original equipment
manufacturer) as the chassis and remain readily recognizable as such
original forward of the “B” pillar. Maximum body lift is 75mm. Flat deck
tray style vehicles must have no sharp protruding corners front or rear
that could endanger other competitors. Intrusion bars to be fitted, if
necessary, to prevent other vehicles being caught under the tray both
rear and sides.
(d) SUSPENSION – Open, providing they conform to LVVTA and WOF
standards.
(e) ROLL CAGES – Roll cages must conform to ORANZ specifications.
General safety requirements to follow the class requirements as
Section Three – Rules pertaining to all classes.

Hi Darin,Those specs look like a good starting point ,but i think we should also allow the mixing of body chassis combinations ,at present we say you can start say with a Suzuki ,you can put Hi lux diffs under it ,you could throw any motor from any make into it ,coilovers etc etc ,but you cant mix and match bodys etc .to me thats dumb and needs looking at ..Steve

Yeah I 100% agree about bodies and chassis mixing. But then I think you should be able to do it in Challenge Class as well?
The mixing of bodies and chassis was a fundamental of the trial Club Class rules and what we are trying to do is continue inn that line so It really must be an option I think.

"Quote" "Immediately Bernie, Dan and Wayne MacKenzie come to mind as people with tricks that don't really fit Club class or Challenge "

Darren just a query about above but Bernies vehicle is pretty much a standard jeep with lockers and has coil over's fitted ,Wayne's car is stock bar chev motor and Toyota body, I see this as more of a club vehicle than a suzuki with a Toyota motor and hilux running gear don't really know much about dans truck thats mentioned so cant really comment.

Any way my thoughts

Maybe 3 classes

1 challenge as it stands

2 club this is basically what Darren put with a couple changes

(a) max 35" tyre

(b) ENGINE and TRANSMISSIONS – Replacement engines from any automotive manufacturer are permitted.But oem factory transmissions must be kept. The engines may run turbos or super-chargers.( I realize there are a few vehicles that don't meet this but if you are running now you should be able to keep running that configuration, but atleast this forms a rule for the future builds and differentiates from challenge and is an incentive to go up to challenge.)

c) BODY – The body shall be of the same OEM (original equipment manufacturer) or equivalent size body (to eliminate a suzy on a Nissan and to allow Wayne to run) and remain readily recognizable as such no cutting of chassis between original factory axel placements so wheels are where the factory put them , and original body forward ***and including the “B” pillar**** including inner guards but allowing for flares etc. Maximum body lift is 75mm.

(d) SUSPENSION – one shock per wheel, no gas bump stops

(e) ROLL CAGES – minimum 4 point Roll cages must be manufactured to ORANZ specifications.(certification not needed)

(f) Vehicle Must have originally been sold as a 4x4 vehicle before mods started.

(g) an off the shelf electric or pto winch with factory size drum.(no hydraulic).

(h) original oem diffs and diff housings ( I realize there are a few vehicles that don't meet this but if you are running now you should be able to keep running that configuration, but atleast this forms a rule for the future builds and differentiates from challenge and is an incentive to go up to challenge.)

(g) no warrant or reg required but must be up to warrant standards of mechanical integrity.Must run log book if no warrant.

(h) all other rules from challenge that are not contravened above.

3 stock,

(A)stock being a reg warranted 4x4 with mud tyres max of 33" (as most vehicles like this don't run round on 35,s)

(B) no traction aids (I think this might be like the south island does it ?),

(C) no automated free spools

(d) all factory diffs gear boxes etc

(e) an off the shelf electric or pto winch with factory size drum and motor

(f) max 50mm lift

Different thoughts to above but there are a few club class vehicles that would fit this it might be another way of getting more vehicles into the sport as they will soon want lockers etc and move to next class or because they are road legal maybe challenge .

[Modified by: Scott Brassey on November 07, 2009 06:39 AM]

[Modified by: Scott Brassey on November 07, 2009 06:44 AM]

Hi Scott ,one problem that comes to mind is what do you do about a Safari or Toyota that some have diff locks factory .It would be nearly impossible to police to just say you cant use them or pull a fuse .To make it easier on track setters i think we should have the same tyre size limits for all classes ,We have some stages in mind at next years Norwest that if a truck (nissan) on 33"s was to follow sevral groups of Challenge trucks some of which run 36"s they would be at a huge disadvantage over say a hilux on 33"s or a Suzuki..Last year we planned to run Club class over the tracks that we knew would cut up first ,but Murphys law saw that go out of the window real quick .Ask anyone thats been involved in setting tracks for a winch challenge and ill think they will say its another problem they could do without..Steve

hi scott, in your post you mentioned OEM factory transmissions to be kept, are you meaning doing away with all manualised autos, shift kitted autos, 4wd automatic gearboxes that bolt on to the rear of lexus v8's ( you need to change all the internals in a hilux auto to run behind a lexus) and some others? If that is what you are meaning by keeping transmissions standar and OEM..i think that would put alot of current competitiors out. Also, you said yes to off the shelf electric winches and ptos, but you excluded hydraulic? Surely that is an off the shelf winch which can be kept to run standard and can also be hugely modified if you have a big wallet burning a hole in your pocket?

The problem i see is that we need to look at this as a whole sport and not just as what is good for one class. If all we do is focus on the club class (as it now stands) then we will only have those that are currently involved. So what I believe we need to focus on is three classes that cater for trucks with varying amounts of modification. Also we need to be very aware of stopping cheque book racing.
So
Class 1 Basic, mods, factory drivetrain, factory suspension with off the shelf kits, standard winchs etc. and basically a productuon class. 4 point cage, tracks set to keep speed down. Basically road legal but bush trucks allowed if up to standard. No coil conversions etc etc

Class 2 More extensive mods, modified winchs etc but still basically a production class. 6 point cage . Motors and suspension open but chassis mods restricted. I think the rules should be tightned a bit take it back to where it was a few years ago. ie Remove wheelbase extensions.

Class 3 Basic restriction on what you must have but basically anything goes as long as you start with a production vehicle. 6 point cages, road legal or not doesn't really matter BUT must be capable of getting a WOF so have opening doors etc etc. Chassis mods allowed.

The idea being that if you have a 4x4 that was once road legal, you can race it. As you modify it you just change class. Crew experience etc have NO effect upon the class you race in.
Hand in hand with this should be to make the rules simplier and easier for everyone. This doesn't mean changing the what we are doing, far from it but it does mean making it more logical and hopefully easier for all concerned.

One thing that needs to change for this to happen is to allow body and chassis mixing in Challenge class. Maybe restrict it so that the body and chassis must be from the same basic size or vehicle to stop the feared Suzuki on a Nissan chassis.

This would mean that the current club class would end up split between all three classes and the challenge class would be split between classes 2 and 3. The other side of it is you can run up a class (as long as you meet the safety rules) and then also go back down if needed. So if an event only catered for one class then the guys below could step up for that one event without effecting where they race in the future.

Nothing that is being discussed here will stop any body racing from contiuing or stop anybody wanting to get in based upon current rules. All it will do is maybe put them into a different class with more comparable vehicles and reduce costs.

Sorry guy's, but I had to have a laugh : :

I posted this some months ago in another thread on here.....

I was talking about three distinct groups that are doing winch challenge's.

This is sort of a break down of how I saw things back in July, and sounds like others are staring to see the same thing now.

Its slightly out of context as I have just copied and pasted it over from the other thread, but its worth a read as there are some interesting idea's amongst the bad spelling and poor grammer

Quote "Peter Hall":

Peter Hall
posted Jul 22, 2009 at 11:59 AM
Quote Edit

As Trev said, you have your shiny's with mud tyres. Ok, ok, your "road legal truck with mud tyre's"

I can think of half a dozen teams that i saw competing at north island events this year that fall into this catagory.
We had a few SWB safari's, a XJ jeep, a LWB Landrover, a SWB vitara etc etc Call them Group A

And then the like's of me, with my Zook, trailered, full caged, not road legal, 100+Hp toyo motor, but standard running gear.

There was me in my previous vehicle Thunderguts, which was 100% home built, two suzuki SJ413's, a jeep kj??, a SWB safari, a vitara, and another home built suzuki based thing, a cruiser body on a Safari chassis with a 350 chev. Call them Group B

Then there are the other guy's, like Ben in his FJ40, Glen in his Landrover, Jeremy in his Prado/Hilux, Jean (sp?) in his Hilux and others that are road legal, but are tough. Call them group C

Todate, club class has been a mix of these vehicles, with the guy's in group C dominating, and as Bernie said, just nipping at the heels of the challenge class guy's in terms of stage time's.

I suspect the reason these guy's are in Club Class, is due to a variety or reasons, Ben is experience related, Jeremy's issue is the bidy/chassis rule and experience, Jene is experience and Glen is because he is having fun exactly where he is. Budget will also be a huge factor as well, you can generally complete a clubclass event with out major repairs at the end. These are the guy's who are anticipated in moving up to Challenge class, as they are effectively honeing their skiils and ironing out their trucks in preparation. These guy's are serious competitors.

As for group B, well, they try to give the group C guy's a run for their money. Thing is though, it's these guy's that are usualy doing things on the lowest budget possible. Thats why they have a trailered vehicles, as having a road legal truck is a big investment to use as a dedicated off road vehicle and use in competition's as a toy. we can make our own cage's, we can fit what ever seats we like, we can chop and hack at the body to fit big tyre's, we can shoe horn in what ever motor we can get our hands on for cheap, the list goes on. What this boils down to, is that the level of expenditure/investiment in these vehicle's is not huge, and as a result you mostly get teams that are FUN orientated, and just like competeing amongst themselve's. A good placing is fine, but if you can complete the event, stick in a couple of good stage time's, and drive onto the trailer at the end of the event, thats enough. They are off to do some other sort of event a couple of weekends later, trials, tough truck, bush trip what ever....

Group A guy's will generally either have another daily driver vehicle, and the fourwheel drive they use at the weekend's is their slightly modified to take bigger tyre's average 4x4, or it is their daily driver, so can't have it off the road through damage or for modification. I have been down this road also, so from experience, they don't want to wreck their trucks, as they are a big investment. They don't do huge modifications, as that means getting a cert which is a dead $500. They don't want to get a full 6 point cage as a couple of thousand is again a big expenditure just for winch challenge's as they don't need it for anything else they use the vehicle for. It can also limit useability/access throyugh the vehicle into the rear passenger compartment. Again, the expenditure required is above the limit of FUN.

So what to do??

You can't cater for everyone??

Or can we, we have been doing it so far have we not??

I just can't get it into my head why there is so much resistance to having club class divided into groups?? Someone is going to have to explain to me really slowly and clearly so i get it ;)

The way i see it, is that at the end of the day, the groups are just on paper. They are just defined in the rules, and again on the score cards.

I was pounced upon at the time, but here you all are ........................................

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 10, 2009 02:08 PM]

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 10, 2009 02:16 PM]

Some of the rules I dreamed up aswell. I think they are still relevant to the disscussion

Quote "Peter Hall":

Peter Hall
posted Jul 22, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Quote Edit

Some Proposed Rules Smile

*********************Group A******************************** The shiny boy's :)
Apart from the following exemptions, full 4x4challenges rules apply:

1. Four point roll over protection

2. Standard engine, or certified engine swap/modification -(this deals with the 500hp, no cage issue)

3. OEM suspension configuration, no remote resivoir shocks as per Bernies recomendation.

4. OEM Axles and internals

5. OEM body

6. OEM Chassis

7. OEM pto winch

8. Standard electric winch

9. Standard aftermarket electric winch

10. Standard Hydro winch, as it was designed to be powered by the manufacture ie piggy backed to P/S pump type thing.

11. Traction Aids allowed (Why restrict them?? Most 4x4's have a LSD as standard. If you don't have a locker right now, don't grizzle, save up and buy one, or make one, its not going to stop you entering and having fun is it??)

*********************************Group B****************************************** The Non-road legal Boy's
Apart from the following exemptions, full 4x4challenges rules apply:

1. 6 point NZ4WDA min spec cage (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules, but caters for the 500hp trucks)

2. Full 4 point approved safty harnesses (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

3. No WOF/REG required, but must be declared to be of a standard of mechanical integrity suitable to compete by the competitor.

4. Chassis modification allowed.

5. Body modification allowed, orginal panel work shape must be retained, replacement panels allowed as per 4x4 Chalnegs rules. (this is to prevent tube bodied, alloy paneled purpose built trucks)

6. Body and chassis may be from different sources

7. Axles and Axle internal modification allowed ( to allow for axle swaps, or the use of chromolly CV's etc etc)

8. Suspension configuration change's allowed (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

9. Coil overs allowed (Why not?? goes hand in hand with suspension modification, they can't be done on the cheap, so doubt many will run them),(not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

10. No remote resivior Shocks.

11. Any Engine allowed (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

12. Rear mounted radiators allowed.

13. OEM pto winch

14. OEM Standard electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

15. Standard aftermarket electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

16. Standard Hydro winch, as it was designed to be powered by the manufacture ie piggy backed to P/S, or driven from a stand alone P/S pump. (to avoid big dollar hydro winch set ups)

********************************Group C************************************ The Tough Road Legal Boy's

Apart from the following exemptions, full 4x4challenges rules apply:

1. 6 point NZ4WDA min spec cage (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules, but caters for the 500hp trucks)

2. Full 4 point approved safty harnesses (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

3. WOF/REG required.

4. Chassis modification allowed. (allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

5. Body modification allowed, orginal panel work shape must be retained, replacement panels allowed as per 4x4 Chalnegs rules. (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules),(allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

6. Body and chassis may be from different sources. (allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

7. Axles and Axle internal modification allowed ( to allow for axle swaps, or the use of chromolly CV's etc etc)(not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules), (allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

8. Suspension configuration change's allowed (not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

9. Coil overs allowed (Why not?? goes hand in hand with suspension modification, they can't be done on the cheap, so doubt many will run them),(not necessesary to mention, as specified already in 4x4challenge rules)

10. Rear mounted radiators allowed.(allowed because it would have to be certed for WOF/Reg rule)

11. OEM pto winch

12. OEM Standard electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

13. Standard aftermarket electric winch (dual batteries etc allowed, single battery won't cope with a competition)

14. Standard Hydro winch, as it was designed to be powered by the manufacture ie piggy backed to P/S, or driven from a stand alone P/S pump. (to avoid big dollar hydro winch set ups)

Please feel free to quote these, and add, remove and crtique, qeustion these as you see fit Smile

[Modified by: Peter Hall on July 22, 2009 12:46 PM]

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 10, 2009 02:12 PM]

Quote "Peter Hall":

Peter Hall
posted Jul 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM
Quote Edit

You have all trucks competeing on the same stage's.

Easier winch's for the club class guy's due to their class requirements for winch's.

Maybe even easier "outs" for the Group A guy's.

Group C guy's are the competior's most likely to feed Challenge class in the future, as they are building trucks that are road legal and therefore have REAL potential for entering that class. They are basically a challenge class truck, but they are held back by heavily restricting winch specification rules.

These winch spec rule's put the whole of club class on a level playing field when it come's to winching.

It also sets club class apart from Challenge class, where you can build what ever the hell winch you like provided it has a atomatic brake.

As a result you don't get challenge class /trucks/competitors competeing in club class, and you can also allow some of the more unsual trucks to do a winch challenge, such as different body/chassis, shortened chassis etc et

Sure they can't move up to Challenge class, but If it was their intention, they don't have an excuse as the challenge class rules are pretty clear.

You don't get the shiny boy's complaining about being against trailered trucks and not having a fair chance, because they are in different group, sure its only on paper, but if it makes them happy and have more FUN, then thats just sparkly!!!!!!

You can allow the multi discipline trailered trucks in.

Basically the main advantage that groups B and C will have over A is straight line speed, due to alowing suspension modifications, and in Group B, easy engine swaps.

Also, think about this:

A couple of guy's might enter their weekend warrior cruiser into Group A for a a bit of fun because they can.

They like...... (due to not being scared away)

They start building and improving the truck over a period of years as the paint goes duller and the dents grow bigger, and before you no it they have some experience and are now in Group C. They decide that they are now awesome, and nipping at the heels of the challenge class trucks, so go away, sort out a good fast winch, and enter challenge class.

I just solved you feeder problem eh??

Mean while, they guy's in Group B are still batteling it out amongst them selve's, and due to the fact that they can never enter their trucks into challenge class due to them not being road legal, and also being restricted to standard winch's, we see some highly evolved vehicles emerge that fit the rule's, have drivers with huge experience from doing lot's of other forms of 4wheeling in their trucks, and may grow into monster that is the future of the sport. Actually it's more likely no one will bother building a truck specifically for Group B, as you can't go anywhere from it, its dead end. That will keep those of you who are worried about someone building a non road legal 50k club class special quiet. No one will bother, because you can't compete with the hi powereded winch's, or drive the tough line's.

Untill we invent an Outlaw class equivilant eh Jafa Smile

Also, this way, there is no reason someone can't compete year after year in the same group within the same class if they desire, but Challenge Class will always be seen as the ultimate class as thats where the guy's run the REAL winch's, and drive the TOUGH stuff.

[Modified by: Peter Hall on July 22, 2009 03:23 PM]

Quote Darin Neeley:

The problem i see is that we need to look at this as a whole sport and not just as what is good for one class. If all we do is focus on the club class (as it now stands) then we will only have those that are currently involved. So what I believe we need to focus on is three classes that cater for trucks with varying amounts of modification. Also we need to be very aware of stopping cheque book racing.
So
Class 1 Basic, mods, factory drivetrain, factory suspension with off the shelf kits, standard winchs etc. and basically a productuon class. 4 point cage, tracks set to keep speed down. Basically road legal but bush trucks allowed if up to standard. No coil conversions etc etc

Class 2 More extensive mods, modified winchs etc but still basically a production class. 6 point cage . Motors and suspension open but chassis mods restricted. I think the rules should be tightned a bit take it back to where it was a few years ago. ie Remove wheelbase extensions.

Class 3 Basic restriction on what you must have but basically anything goes as long as you start with a production vehicle. 6 point cages, road legal or not doesn't really matter BUT must be capable of getting a WOF so have opening doors etc etc. Chassis mods allowed.

The idea being that if you have a 4x4 that was once road legal, you can race it. As you modify it you just change class. Crew experience etc have NO effect upon the class you race in.
Hand in hand with this should be to make the rules simplier and easier for everyone. This doesn't mean changing the what we are doing, far from it but it does mean making it more logical and hopefully easier for all concerned.

One thing that needs to change for this to happen is to allow body and chassis mixing in Challenge class. Maybe restrict it so that the body and chassis must be from the same basic size or vehicle to stop the feared Suzuki on a Nissan chassis.

This would mean that the current club class would end up split between all three classes and the challenge class would be split between classes 2 and 3. The other side of it is you can run up a class (as long as you meet the safety rules) and then also go back down if needed. So if an event only catered for one class then the guys below could step up for that one event without effecting where they race in the future.

I like the ideas.

There will have to be some significant difference;s in track setting for the class 1 trucks.

The class 2 and 3 trucks like it hard, the class 1 trucks will not find it so favourable.

Reducing speed through gate's is fine, but a Safari on a standard electric winch will not cut the mustard.

There in lie's the problem that was brought up a few months back, that it become's a track setters night mare.

We stepped away from the real standard class, or Class 1 as you suggested Darin, because they just wouldn't be able to run the same stage's as the other to class's.

By setting seperate stage's for those class 1 trucks, they almost became part of another event entirely.

More along the line's of a club funday winch comp...................................

We also decided a few months back that its the Nut behind the wheel that has more to do with success at a winch challenge than the vehicle.

I hate the fact that those old bastards like Bernie, Glen and Gav out drive me, my truck can do it, its just the idiot swinging on the steering wheel that lets things down hahahahah

.
. .
. .

My thoughts today, there are a combination of things other than an extra class that could be put on the table.........are that d

First, deregulating the road legal requirement of of challenge class through the use of the log book's.

Second, making the club class stage's slower and easier.

What this MIGHT do, is see the top end of club class go through up to challenge class, because thats where they will have the most fun, as the stage's are harder, faster and more challenging.

They won't want to stay in club class with the standard truck's going slow and doing slow short stage's.

The slow short stage's would suit standard trucks on standard winch's.

I personally think its the road legal requirement of challenge class thats crippling the sport at its highest level.

Get rid of that and it might prevent having to dream up a third class??

Quote Peter Hall:

[
I like the ideas.I personally think its the road legal requirement of challenge class thats crippling the sport at its highest level.

Get rid of that and it might prevent having to dream up a third class??

Funny but I've just had that exact same conversaion with a very experienced Challenge class competitor and truck owner. He made the point that keeping it legal is very very expensive and for what point?
Trails and off road racing both have no issue with safety and they don't require WOF so it isn't a safety issue.
When was th last time that they was a touring stage that would require a WOF? Sure at Nor-West we use to drive to and from the show grounds but it wasn't a touring stage and pretty easy to plan around.
So is having a WOF a through back to the origins of the sport but it has changed so much it is now not relevant?

So if you remove the need for a WOF what is th real impact?
Removing the need doesn't stop you having one though.
What are the fundemental parts of the sport that are good and what are the things that are causing so many to drop out and proibiting the building of new trucks?

One arguement I don't accept is if we change the rules to not requiring WOF's then all the existing competitors will stop racing as hardly any are anyway and it would appear that those that are will race whatever.

How is keeping the" vehicle road legal very expensive and for what point?" a valid excuse for changing anything?, it costs pretty much the same to race at a event no matter which class your in. The main costs would appear to be entry to the events, travel to and from and accomodation.

Wasnt the whole point of winch challenge events to be competing in road legal vechicles?
If you look at the range of trucks that are competing at the moment theres pretty much nothing that cant be made road legal with a little bit of thought put into it.

Also racing in both classes has been pretty even this year, everyone has had good and bad events and there has certainly been no favourites at any event.

Something to remember also is that it has been a shitty year financially for a lot of people and thats gotta have a effect on entry numbers

Cheers

Both Tim and Darin i think have made fair points, but in my opinion the road legal rule should stay (in the challenge class at least) as this is part of what allows us to race in the Mamaku forest and some other pieces of land that winch challenges are held on. Some Owners require WOFs and regos to reduce the liability should an accident occur on his or her land. Sure it is expensive to keep a vehicle up to WOF standards and road legal, but we also need WOF's and Rego's for insurance that the rules state we must have. Part of the original idea of the logbook was so not to have keep getting new WOF's for every competition, could let the WOF issued run the 6 or 12 months it was issued for.

I know of 3 challenge competitiors who arent racing this year purely due to financial constraints. So everyone can bang on about there not being many competitiors out there to compete this year, but people also have to rememeber, some of these vehicles are funded through businesses and the like, if your business is struggling due to the economic times, you arent likley going to fork out for a new set of simex or 80m of plasma rope are you?? these competitiors will come back, it will just take time for things to pick up again.

Forest acces requires insurance which can be obtained for a non road legal vehicle. The NZFWDA insurance is all that is required for forest access. We require you to have third party to ensure you have an insurance company backing you up. I could go into the reasons in detail but most don't care.
I was part of the group that setup the original CHH formal access agreement several years ago and non-WOF vehicles were specifically catered for in that agreement. That particular agreement was the basis for all the other regional agreements after that. Those agreements stood until CHH were preparing to sell the forests and so retricted access.
Look at it this way, motorcross bikes, ORANZ etc are allowed into the forests so why are we any different?

Quote Christopher smith:

I know of 3 challenge competitiors who arent racing this year purely due to financial constraints. So everyone can bang on about there not being many competitiors out there to compete this year, but people also have to rememeber, some of these vehicles are funded through businesses and the like, if your business is struggling due to the economic times, you arent likley going to fork out for a new set of simex or 80m of plasma rope are you?? these competitiors will come back, it will just take time for things to pick up again.

So on that basis, I would suggest these guys are the exception, and the current competitors are the norm.

I say that because the current competitors are the ones that turn up no matter what, even if their tyres have rounded edges and the over braid has all but come off their rope.

The guy's that don't come out to race because they can't afford a new set of tyres and a new winch rope for each event would most definitely be the exception to the rule in my opinion.

Either way, that's besides the point, there is obviously something wrong if they feel they can't come out to race unless they have the best and flashest gear.

I do it on a budget. So do most people. If i didn't have a budget, i would race in the WRC

My thoughts are inline with Darin's about challenge class WOF rules.

I understand Tim's idea's also.

My thoughts are that once you have your truck set up ready to compete, the cost per event is about the same, road legal or not.

Its the build cost that differs, the cost and restriction of building stuff to the sometimes stupid and restrictive cert rules, the head ache if taking it to the right place for a WOF as we all know they aren't all created equally, continuous registration...........

Make's my trailer truck seem way more fun and attractive, in my opinion at least

My questions are:

Why do we want to open the competition up to a more standard level of trucks than we already have??

Why are people so fiercely attached to the road legal requirements??

Why do people think that the most highly modified truck is always going to win?? (take Jean Batty at manukau, got beat by a few much more standard trucks)
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There is an attitude out there, that because so and so has got this and that done to their truck, its unfair that we are in the same class as that truck and so on.

Its just simply not the case in the real world. In fact we discussed that in another thread a while back. The more standard trucks quite often have the endurance factor over the more highly modified trucks that might put in a few good stage stage times before they self destruct..

I'm stuck on the idea that all trucks should compete on the same stage's as much as possible.

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 12, 2009 10:19 AM]