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LEAVE CHALLANGE CLASS AS IT IS.
Club class was invited in to the sport to allow other 4x4 users to try a sport different to trials or doing club type runs.
Now that you have the bug for competition you feel you need to change the sport rules because your 4x4 does not meet our rules that have worked for some time now.
WOF and Reg needs to stay as it is or we will lose what the competition was and is about now.
Anyone and I mean anyone can get some old shit heap out from under a tree, strip it, bend some pipe, bolt on a winch get come SAT tyres, weld the back diff, screw on some alloy then paint it with some super cheap paint then push it on a trailer.
During the Taupo winch comp I had people come up to me and say "shit I saw all these really cool 4x4s driving through town and some on trailers" (trials trucks heading south). Straight away even they could see the difference in the type of 4x4. I have always had 4wd's and was amazed with the oz trucks and their competition and wanted to be just like these and when I heard about the first kiwi challange i sneaked in to watch. I was hooked so went home looked on Trademe and then it started. Get the RULES and study them, build truck to suit. While I was building rules changed, didn't change things I was on a budget entered Rotorua's normal round had a blast met Raana and here we are today trying to change the competition rules that set us apart from any other 4x4 sport to suit a class that was invited to join in. If you wish to build outside the rules than do what trials did make up a class for it, OR put your 4x4 on the trailer and travel around the country and for a one day comp sit in the seat for an hour roll down the hill. I have built my 4x4 to compete to the rules of 3 different 4x4 sports. Why cant you guys?

X2

There needs to be a three class competition and the rules need to be set before the class is opened for a competition.
It needs to have the trials type trucks in mind. Light, tube,full roll cage, and open to any thing and up to 36.5 inch tyres.
At Taupo there was two types of trucks in club class. ex trials or built to trials class and trucks that are more suited to being out on a club run (more standed than modified).

Quote Klem Christensen:

There needs to be a three class competition and the rules need to be set before the class is opened for a competition.
It needs to have the trials type trucks in mind. Light, tube,full roll cage, and open to any thing and up to 36.5 inch tyres.
At Taupo there was two types of trucks in club class. ex trials or built to trials class and trucks that are more suited to being out on a club run (more standed than modified).

See this is what cracks me up.

When was the last time any of you want to watch a Trials event??

There are only a hand full of custom built tube buggies.

The majority are still a full chassis and the majority of the body. There are class rules.

When some one say's trials all you guys suddenly start imagining space framed buggies. There are a few, but the majority aren't.

Look at it from another point of view:

You "invited" more people to compete, as you were struggeling for competitors.

To do this you had to invent club class.

Club class has got a good turn out at all events this year.

How many competitors has club class actually contributed to challenge class so far??

Only one that I can think of, maybe three at a streatch. Tim, Jean and Ben.

They would have all done Challenge class anyway, so thats the at a streatch part.

My point is that with the rules the way they are, I don't see anyone being able to progress up to challenge class that is currently running club.

The Brassy's can't, Dan Cleaver can't, Bernnie can't, I can't, Mike Mable can't, heeeeeaps more can't.

I don't have the answers.

I'm just looking for the next step to take with truck developement.

I want to compete on the same stage's as the challenge trucks.

If that means re-vin'ing the zook, then so be it.

But there needs to be some rule's in place before that developement starts, because at the moment, its a half a day job and it goes back to A Class trials spec's.

Much more work, and it will never be able to go back..................................................

Almost everyone I have spoken to are not in favour of allowing space frame vehicles. They see challenge class as the ultimate class and club as an introductory / feeder class.
The general consesus is that challenge class should stay basically as it is with the exception being that WOF is not required but the vehicle specs must be atlered to ensure the type of truck racing stays much like it is now.
The need for a third class is not there at present IF WOF's aren't required in challenge.
If a third class is created then it is in between club and challenge and not above challenge. (as far as vehicle specs go)
The other theme that came out of the meeting is that challenge class is dying due to the cost of building to the spec.

Are we overly concerned about what the sport was rather than focusing upon what it actually is right now? We don't use the trucks on road, a WOF does not restrict the mods you can do (but it makes them cost more), a WOF does not gaurantee safety or anything like that.
So what does not requiring a WOF actually change? ie If the vehicles are kept basically the same and safety is maintained.

This is not a right or wrong answer, it is only opinion and at the meeting on Sunday the opinion was very firmly in favour of dropping the need for a WOF as long as the rules ensure the truck spec and standards are maintained.

So the question is how fundemental to the sport is the requirement for a WOF and if we keep it in Challenge then will it survive if we also have a similar class not requiring a WOF? ie road legal and non road legal class.

Also does it matter if we create a third non road legal class similar to challenge and then challenge dies out?

As it stands I see 2 options.

1 Keep it to 2 classes and drop the need for WOF in challenge.

2 Increase to 3 classes and have a class much like challenge that doesn't require WOF and have the club class as feeder class.

Quote Klem Christensen:

There needs to be a three class competition and the rules need to be set before the class is opened for a competition.
It needs to have the trials type trucks in mind. Light, tube,full roll cage, and open to any thing and up to 36.5 inch tyres.
At Taupo there was two types of trucks in club class. ex trials or built to trials class and trucks that are more suited to being out on a club run (more standed than modified).

Have we ever had someone if a tube buggy want to do a winch comp?
It would appear that the cross over is more to ORANZ than anything else?
I would think that mixed body and chassis and and no WOF has stopped far more people?

i have to agree with klem!

Keep challenge class as it is and keep the WOF/Reg's and certs for challenge class.

A few threads ago guys were banging on about wanting a way to distinguish between both the challenge class and club class because the vehicles look much the same, my view is by dropping the Wofs from challenge class, it is bring it more in to line with the club class. What is it that will distinguish between the 2 classes?? Im not saying a WOF and REGO will enable you to distinguish between the 2, but i think removing the wof and rego requirement is taking a HUGE step backwards in where the class should be going to futureproof our sport. You park 2 well setup club class trucks against 2 well set up challenge class trucks and with a proper set of club class requirements as well as challenge class requirements people with an untrained eye should be able to notice the difference. At the moment i really doubt they could.

If Wofs and regos are to be kept, maybe we should actually put them to use, and do scruiteneering somewhere in the public view, eg, town centre car park or sumwhere like that, so the public can get an idea of what these trucks are and what they can do..and make the trucks drive on the road to the competition site. Exactly what klem did with taupo, he said at drivers briefing, "we have WOF's and REGO's, so im going to make you use them" and the trucks drove from the Spa, all the way to Reparoa 45k's away to do the first stage, whose to say we cant do that more often and make use of the WOF's? Rotorua Winch Challenge organisers has done this for the past 7 years!

People have already built challenge trucks in the past that have complied to Legal requirements, and with the time and effort more can be. It seems 4x4challenges is changing the goal posts half way through the game which is unfair to the current crop of ROAD LEGAL challenge class competitiors. that is a sure way to gain more club class guys in to challenge class, but im certain you will find that if this was to happen you would lose more current challenge class guys.

The other side of the coin, if you were to get rid of WOF and Rego requirements for challenge class, you might as well get rid of the need for vehicle insurance as well as you CANNOT get vehicle insurance for trucks that aren't registred or warranted.

There is a way forward out there somewhere, and im dam certain dropping the legal requirements to keep a challenge class vehicle on the road is not the correct way to go about it.

Quote Darin Neeley:

A
As it stands I see 2 options.

1 Keep it to 2 classes and drop the need for WOF in challenge.

2 Increase to 3 classes and have a class much like challenge that doesn't require WOF and have the club class as feeder class.

If you take option two, the third class, challenge class, will surely die.

As people develop their trucks, they will say to hell with getting another cert AGAIN, lets just enter the other class, as that class drives the same tracks, has the same level of competition and doesn't require a WOF REG and CERT.

So challenge class as its stands today will die, the "other class" will grow, and club class will grow.

If thats the way it happen's is that so bad??

It would prevent some soap box standing, as it would see a natural death to a class, and a new one take its place as a gradual process.

If it doesn't happen, and Challenge class live's on, then thats just sparkly eh??

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 17, 2009 03:02 PM]

Quote Peter Hall:

Quote Darin Neeley:

A
As it stands I see 2 options.

1 Keep it to 2 classes and drop the need for WOF in challenge.

2 Increase to 3 classes and have a class much like challenge that doesn't require WOF and have the club class as feeder class.

If you take option two, the third class, challenge class, will surely die.

As people develop their trucks, they will say to hell with getting another cert AGAIN, lets just enter the other class, as that class drives the same tracks, has the same level of competition and doesn't require a WOF REG and CERT.

So challenge class as its stands today will die, the "other class" will grow, and club class will grow.

If thats the way it happen's is that so bad??

It would prevent some soap box standing, as it would see a natural death to a class, and a new one take its place as a gradual process.

If it doesn't happen, and Challenge class live's on, then thats just sparkly eh??

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 17, 2009 03:02 PM]

I think that you will find that club class will fold sooner if you dont sort the rules you have or have not.
There was two types of trucks at taupo. and the ones that did well have only been let in to help you guys join in. Club class in my mind should not run on the same tracks where possable and if you wish too then go get a WOF.
When i said tube buggies that is what you will end up with, may not be what you start with but it will head that way real quick.

I put you on the tracks when they were easy and put you into stages that were safe as possable. I set the challenge tracks in order to get them to smash the tops off for you so you had a easyer run (did not see to many blowen winches in you class)
I used two different score cards and turned tracks around. You had different tracks in away but you felt you were on par with challenge class (not at all) this way i was giving you a taste of what we do and not the real thing.
You say you wont to race on challenge tracks, get a WOF, Mods cost money not WOF. Stop doing mods and the WOF is all you need to do Put the reg on hold between comps use the log book and there you go saving bucks all the way.
I to have a suzuki and if i push to change the cant do go down a class for 2 years then you might see me in your class in some thing quite different to what is there now. Now that be SPARKLY and you will want to change the rules to get me out .

If the WOF thing goes , who will get a cert You wont need it you not driving on the road. And i could do my own certs and who will say i can not i have the paper work and all the tickets but i dont need to keep within LTSA so lets see what the rules will look like now 500 pagers more bull sh#t and the class will see natural death.
Keep the WOF some one else (LTSA) makes the other rules easy.
Make club class any thing goes class. Now we will see some crying
Leave challenge as is and run challenge on there own tracks (where possable)
And please dont slip off the soap box OSH is looking.

Hook, line and sinker!!!!!!!!!

Can you LIST your actual reasons please??

The overwheelming majority voted that WOF's should go as no one could give a good reason why they hould stay.....

Do you have some??

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 18, 2009 07:09 AM]

Firstly, 4x4 Challenges is not changing anything! All that is happening is a review is going on and peoples idea and opinions are being asked. If you bothered to read my first post in this thread you will see that is clearly stated.
This is a club and the rules of the club should reflect the desires of the club members. If the majoirty in Challenge want it left as it is, then that is what will happen. If there is a calling for a thrid class then that is what will happen. If everyone says to leave everything alone and don't change it because it is all absolutely perfect, then nothing will change.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need to have discussion about these things and that is exactly waht is happening. Don't get all pissed off that someone is suggesting a change as it is their right to ask. The change will not happen unless that is what the majority want.

I was elected to run the organisation. That means I get all of your ideas together, figure out what people want and make that happen. It doesn't mean they are my ideas as what I want is very different to what is happenong and what is most likely going to happen. (I'd love to see a production class and an outlaw class but the masses don't want it so it won't happen)
To all those that have a problem, then get off your ass and tell us what you think but be positive. We have a good thing going at present and what we need to do if protect it. That means a fews things need to change but they are primarily around the club class.

One thing I have a problem with is trying to say that Club class doesn't hve the same right to compete. Everybody, reguardless of how long they have been racing or what level they are racing at has the same right. Otherwise I have more say than, Chirs, Klem, Tim, Rana, Aaron , Keri, etc as I started racing before them. This not the case and no one would ever suggest that so lets agree that time in the sport does not effect your right to be there or the vote you have!

HOWEVER until you have done a few comps then you don't fully understand how they run and the reasons behind things so the more experienced should be listened.

Lastly, the meeting at Taupo was not a full representation and there were not firm decisions made there. All we got from that was an indication from one group involved with the sport. Due to the nature of what we are discussing, we will follow a similar process to in the past and we will contact as many directly to get your feedback before a decision is made.

And remember this, if it wasn't for the club class, Whangarei and Manukau would NOT have happened! Love it or hate it, it is here to stay and we must ensure the rules are set to assist this.

peter, what is the genuine reason WOF's and REGO's should go???

if its because current club class guys can move up in to challenge class without spending money, then put a warrant and rego on it and then move up. Simple.

Is it because you want to race in challenge class without forking out the money to compete with them? I dont fall for the "its cheaper" argument at all. You said yourself that it costs the same to race a challenge truck and a club truck in the same competition. So wheres the difference? the challenge class must have a WOF and REGO and 6 point cage.

If your truck isnt warranted and registered and you want to race wth the challenge class then put a reg and warrant on it!! As I see it , the challenge class is the next step up, the upper class if you like, so in that class you get to do better tracks, can do more mods, race against better setup trucks and teams. How many long, hard, deep water mud bogs do you see in club class stages? How many Turboed VH45's, powerhouse diesels and hydraulic winches do you see in club class????? These are they guys that want to put the money, time, development and effort in to their trucks to remain competitivie agaisnt other challenge trucks and teams.

By dropping the WOF and REG rule all you will save is maybe $300 dollars a year, most of you guys will drink and piss that much away in a weekend. A cert is a one off 475$ cost unless you keep doing structural mods, and then you can use your little suzuki on the road and not need a use for a trailer. that would be SPARKLY wouldnt it? My main concern is if you drop the current WOF and REG rule you will lose current challenge class competitiors. The other cost is insurance, how many of you non warranted and non rego'd guys have insurance?? not many - if any.

Some people say that they dont use their trucks on the road so why have a warrant?? its their choice to not use their trucks on the road, alot of us do club runs on weekends, some of us drive our trucks to and from work, some of us take it down the road to the dairy to drive over kerbs, some people put their trucks in parades, so it is up to the individual who owns the truck that decides how they use them, They decide to make use of their warrants and reg's. Whats saying we cant make use of them in a competition?

You can insure a non road legal truck and everyone who competed on the weekend had third party insurance. You can also insure a non road legal vehicle for theft etc it just isn't insured when onroad unless you are legally allowed to be there. I could give you the full reasons but who really cares!

So to the guys that are so opposed to dropping WOF's, what are you thoughts to a third class?

thats wierd, i have spoken to AA, State, Tower and ASB bank and they all wont insure a non warranted and non registered vehicle, i have a friend who works for AA and she wouldnt even give me insurance for a truck that had no WOF and REG??

If you remove the requirement for WoF and Rego's within Challenge Class, then you are limiting your opportunities to have events like what Klem put on at Taupo (and what historically has occured at Rotorua and Norwest), whereby competition grounds were held in different locations on the same or consecutive days and hence required vehicles to be road-legal in order to travel between venues. Once you remove the requirement, you will never be in a position to re-instate it, so you'll never have another Denny's type event. To remove the WoF and Rego requirement now, would also be a dis-service to the Challenge guys who have put their money where their mouth is and built trucks to comply with the regulations.

Peter, I suggest you get off your high-horse for a moment. You may have edited your post to remove some of the inflamitory comments, but your sentiments were noted by a number of people. Your comments would be a disappointment to those who spent considerable time and effort to put on an event for your benefit and at their personal sacrifice (i.e. not being able to compete themselves).

As general insurance is part of my business and I write it myself I can assure you, you can insure a vehicle but it is done differently. Just as an idea, you can insure a motocross or farm bike and a tractor and none of them have a WOF or rego and can at times be legally on road. Yes you can register a tractor but it isn't a requirement of the insurance.
So ignore the insurance side as it isn't an issue.

PS If you have your truck insured with any of the companies you listed, just try claiming if you have an accident offroad and see what the outcome is! You might be suprised.

Sorry guy's, I apologise for stirring you all up on an obviously touchy issue!!!

I was just stirring a little to get some debate going, which I have succeeded in doing.

I with drew my comments from last night, as like you say they were inflamatory more than constructive.

My opinions are as valid as yours. If you disagree with my opinions then thats sparkly also. Thats why we have disscussions, vote's and a committee.

Just imagine what would happen if it was just down to one person making all the rules..........................

We have heard the reasons for dropping the WOF and REG, but you guy's have yet to list some constructive arguments for keeping them in challenge class.

Well, other than driving between one comp venue and another, which could be got around.

I have only done less than a hand full of winch challenge's.

My 4wheeling experience is considerable.

So take everything on the chin and have a discussion!!!!

I'm am mearly stirring up debate ok

Keep the personal attacks out of it :)
[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 18, 2009 11:06 AM]

peter, your completly missing the point. I dont think anyone is dismissing your opinions, everyone is free to voice their perception and views of what is happening.

the obvious reason we have WOF's and rego's is so we can drive to and from different stages where competitions are held at different locations (eg taupo, norwest, Denny's, Rotorua to name a few) without having the need to trailer the vehicles and park tow vehicles as well as trailers as most of the time, there isnt the space and/or requirement for them to be there.

Places and events like norwest, if we use that as an example - where previously we have raced at hansons Farm and then gone down to the keumu show and done a couple of stages there and gone back to hansons Farm for more stages, and then back to the keumu show to finish up. if your were to trailer all these vehicles down there, you could kiss goodbye to at least 3 hours due to loading/unloading 20 trucks and getting ourselves sorted. All that time could be used for doing more stages and having fun.

I believe there is a genuine requirement for the Wof's and rego's to remain apart of challenge class, as with the days of land access and problems associated, the events that are being run today need to be located on different patches of land. Not every organiser has access to a million acres of land where they can run 20stages. Just look at Klem and the problems he had, most of the land he had access to was withdrawn for reasons and having him scrambling around to find more that we could use. Big ups to klem by the way for organising and running a great event