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So are we at a point where we have an entry level class, a non road legal class and the current challenge class?

That would mean that we can keep an easy access class that has easier stages and have a progression for them. That next class would be as capable as a challenge class truck and a lot of time would race together BUT in many instances they would miss out due to the requirement of road transport stages.

That would mean only challenge class would do everything due to logistics so there is still a reason to progress if you want to. But it would also mean there is a good hard level of competition for those that either can't or don't want to have a road legal truck.

That would allow for a progression within classes and also a clear definition that winch challenge at the premier level is about road legal trucks.

Either/Or.

My adgenda, straight up, nothing hidden::

I personally think it would be really good to see a class for the tough, non road legal trucks to compete in, that has stage's on par, if not more technically demanding, and more endurance requiring than even the current challenge class has to offer.

In time we will see some awesome vehicles get built, and have us a serious competition:)

I personally think the road legal element is restrictive in terms of truck developement.

Its just a pointless head ache and needless expence. IN MY OPINION

I compete for fun. Prize's and placings are all good, but FUN IS NUMBER ONE

(Sorry if I've peeved some of you off, will buy you a beer at the next event )

my thoughts on the classes are that we need 3 classes, and they need to be renamed. What is now the club class i think should be name the 'modifyed class', challenge class stays as it is and we create a 'super modifyed' class.

The modifyed class would run the exact rules as the current club class ie; no reg, wof, cert etc, with the exception of a max 35" tyre size. Challenge class stays exactly how it is requiring trucks to be road legal etc with a max tyre size of 36.5". Then we have the super modifyed which in essense is the same as the challenge class with the exception of no wof, reg, cert etc, Max 37" tyre size, rear mounted radiatiors if they want to.

By having the 3 classes running like this, we are not stopping any current or future competitiors from racing, for example any current modifyed class truck if they wanted to do harder and longer stages they could move up to challenge class if they were road legal, if not they could move up to the 'super modifyed' class. and any current challenge truck owners who do not want to keep their truck road legal can move to the super modifyed class.

I think we really need to re-name these classes because at present club class conjures up the idea of fairly standard road going trucks, when in reality 95% of them are not. Challenge class NEEDS to stay the same NO CHANGES. and i think super modifyed is a better term than calling them 'outlaw class' as that conjures up the idea of space frame buggys when in reality they are only another class of challenge trucks.

My thoughts
Steve

Sounds like a winning idea

So class's are separated via road legal status and tyre size, all other 4x4 challenges rules apply as we are currently running??

That would be pretty easy to deal to I would say.

Would also shut me up, because it would mean being able to compete on the harder stage's in a non-road legal truck!!!!

Allow rear mounted radiators, and I would just about be bouncing off the walls !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Modified by: Peter Hall on November 18, 2009 06:00 PM]

Just adding my 5 cents

I think all the classes should run the same tracks only because it would make it easier for the event organiser only having to set up one lot of tracks and not have them going out of their way to set up tracks for club class when there are already perfectly awesome tracks set.

I really enjoy winch comps as they are another excuse for us 4wders to get out there and do what we love doing (using our trucks) .

I agree with Steve, keep Challenge Class the same and the idea of the modified and super modified classes is brilliant!!!!!

Hi There
Well im going to build a new truck truck and as i have been running for Klem and Raana for the last few years i can"t go in club class. i im going to bulid a truck to comply with the challenge truck rules and are more than happy to do so!!!!!!!!!!! I think the rules are fine the way they are and heaps off scope to do lots of cool things. But if the rules are going to change i can make some think out of this world that will still go with in the rules but not the LTSA cert rules. Were will we stop??????? leave them alone!!!!! I would like to drive my truck around and to comps and drive home again as i have done with Klem and Raana. People are always coming up to me when i drive Raana's truck around town and ask questions about it and even young kids looking and saying hey dad look at that......COOL!!!!!!!!!! Thats what it is about!!!!!!!!

Why can't you enter club class?? Have you driven in Challenge Class? I thought you could only not enter club class if you had driven in Challenge Class....... But I also thought if it was a truck that hadn't been entered in Challenge Class before it didn't matter who drove it.... so I could be wrong there

As i understand once you have competed in challenge class you have to stand down for two years before you can go into club class.(I maybe wrong). But would love the challenge to step up strait away

mikes exactly right, there is plenty more scope and potential to come out of sheds and peoples brains as new challenge class trucks get built, and it makes it even more of a challenge to build something outrageous and make it road legal. Great ideas in your head arent so good in a certifiers head sometimes .. So im my opinion, steves idea of having 3 classes would work, it gives every current competitior and potential competitior options to move around to different groups either way. Keeps the challenge class vehicle rules the same, and enables heaps of potential for trucks to be dveloped and raced in the 'super modified' class.

haha how many coffees and ciggarettes did it take to come up with that idea steve?

Quote Mike Connor:

As i understand once you have competed in challenge class you have to stand down for two years before you can go into club class.(I maybe wrong). But would love the challenge to step up strait away

As a co-driver you could go to club as a driver but I think that is a rule that is pretty well going to go and be written in such a way that if you want to stay there good luck to you.

Ok so Challenge needs to stay as it is from a basic vehicle spec point of view. ie WOF, cert, basic chassis mods etc. So what about allowing mixes of chassis and body? Is that going to cause anything to change?

Club class needs to cater for 2 types of teams.
Those that are running a standard type of truck and those that are inexperienced.
eg
If someone bought an existing truck and had no experience, it would be negligent for us to allow them to compete in a full comp straight away until they had proven competency. We could make then complete 1 or 2 club class events so that they gain the relevant experience.

Also the guy that has a standard truck that just wants to do a few local comps without bashing his truck to bits.
So we set a vehicle spec that allows a minimum level of mods and then you can race in the class forever.
eg
Standard configuration suspension so no coil conversions or extended wheelbases. Bolt in any kit but no 5 link kits etc.
Engines are hard. I think there should be some restriction so no supercharged V8's but how to make that SIMPLE I don't know.
Roll over protection only as the tracks will be marked to keep the speed down. So main hoop with diagonal and 2 back stays only.
35" (35.5"?) tyres to keep it simple.

Super modified to be production body and chassis (mixes allowed). Must have been previously registered (non registered imports allowed if the same as a local model)
Bodies to be factory look from 'B' pillar foward. (like challenge)
No restrictions on inner guards, firewalls etc so can be completely fabricated.
Chassis rail to be factory 'B' pillar foward.
Cut and welded chassis allowed? eg Surf rear onto Hilux chassis.
No WOF or cert but tougher logbook requirements.
Safety etc as per challenge.
Rear mount radiators, 37" tyres and anything factory oem. (so someone could race a Hummer if they want?)
So basically take a factory vehicle and modify it as much as you want as long as it is still identifiable as that vehicle. So factory grill, gaurds, most of the chassis and body, doors and windscreen.
Must have insurance etc.
In this class you can be road legal but you don't have to be so a challenge class truck could compete here if they wanted to but not the other way around.

I agree three classes is the way to go but keep challenges as is.
Club. road legal and registered but do not meet challenge specifications for roll cage, harness ect. These to compete on modified tracks to lessen damage and possible roll over’s.
Modified, production based, but do not meet challenges specifications for warrant and rego or other specifications.
If the modified class want to race on the same tracks as challenge then they must meet the roll cage and harness requirements.

Hi George ,i think most of us agree there has to be 3 classes ,the only thing i have a problem with is making (club class)? having to be road legal.At present there is several competitors doing it now that if we were to make them compete in the(Supermodified) ? class that class not requireing wof /reg etc it would soon kill there trucks ,If we are going to change things and form 3 classes i think we have to keep in mind thoses that are competing at present and the new classes must not force people to go up in class ..Steve

ps/ this is assuming cjhallenge and super modified will be running harder stages

Sorry before I start cause this could get long winded.

This is not really my personal opinion but a view of what I think it looks like the masses want. It is based not only on this thread but on this a previous thread on the club class and what I have heard around the traps. I will not be offended by any comments about it or if people think I am way off the mark.

The reason for the whole discussion has come about as a result of the introduction of the “Club Class”. The issue that has arisen is that the class covers to broad a class and there are now trucks competing that are in reality over modified for the intention of the class but do not meet challenge specs predominately due to the WOF cert requirements. That is not to say most couldn’t be made to meet those specs but many feel the cost is prohibitive.

Solutions?

By all accounts there is resistance to dropping the WOF/cert/reg requirements of Challenge class so lets just leave that as it is.

This means splitting the current club class or creating a class that will allow the more modded trucks to compete and the lesser modded ones be competitive in their own class. A new class would also need to allow for current challenge trucks to move across if guys decided to drop their wofs etc

Where to draw the line between Club class and the new class?

Thoughts?
Club Class
Based on MC class vehicle that was available in NZ
Factory chassis
Mixed body/chassis of similar size (no zuk on patrol etc, maybe based on motoring industry vehicle sizing)
Body as per current challenge specs re cutting
Standard suspension mounts/configuration (bolt in lifts but coil for coil, leaf for leaf, ifs for ifs)
Any factory spec engine from any manufacturer or modded factory engine (so hot what it had or swap a standard what you want.
Winch as it comes form winch factory (PTO if vehicle model had it, electric or piggy back hydro)
4 point cage
Safety as per the norm
No wof but heavy scruit at first event, then log book
Run on tamed versions of tracks (around major winch killing bogs etc, slowed on high speed sections)

That leaves the new class. Same as Challenge but no Wof reg or do we go further?

Thoughts?

Based on MC class vehicle that was available in NZ
Mixed chassis / body of similar size
Min 50% chassis rail length (in one section, i.e cut front or rear half off or 25% off front and rear max)
Body mods as per current for exterior but no limits on inner guards, firewall, floor pan so log as its safe
Any suspension
Any engine (radiator in rear if you want)
Any winch
Any axle (including portal if your pockets are that deep)
37” tyres (or what ever the exact measurement needs to be to open up that bigger range of tyres.
Safety as per current including 6 point cage
No WOF etc but heavy log book requirements
4x4 Challenges race license (introduced for challenge as well, reason below)
Run same tracks and possible mixed groups with challenge class.

The reason behind the race license has been the discussed “regardless of vehicle spec first event for new comer should be in club class on slower tracks to ensure there is some level of driver ability”. Other option could be having ability vouched for by current competitor with more than 2 years in sport.

Like I said at the start long winded but we are there. And as stated above I will not take criticisms personally so long as they ain’t personal. Just trying to move things forward as it was starting to go in circles.

How much more "out of this world" can you build a truck under the 4x4 challenge's rules and it be any different to whats running now??

[Modified by: Sarah Jones on November 21, 2009 10:13 AM]

This is all fine and good

Back a few months we were all talking about the importance of making life easy for the event organiser, track setter and scruitineer.

When suggesting class spec's, especially for the non road legal options, think about what would be the easiest possible way of scruitineering for your suggestion.

Such suggestions as "fitting any standard engine, must not be modified etc " we decided where impossible to police. Even suggesting a standard engine must not be modified is impossible to police.

That sort of logic applies for a variety of other things to.

As for the experience/Licence idea, My thoughts at this stage is that in order to enter a winch challenge, you need to be a club member. All clubs these days require you undertake a simple vetting process, i.e come out on two club run's, attend a couple of meetings, then its put to a vote at the next meeting etc etc.

So chance's of getting someone grossly in experienced is slim. Getting someone is is very inexperienced is likely.

It would be a shame to see the Class's become like a "cool club" were people are TOLD to move up or down.

If you were to force New competitors to compete in the easiest class first, when they had their sights set much higher, can we see them happily paying the $200 entry fee for nannering round with the standard boys for an event and have to wait another couple of months until the next event before they are allowed to compete properly??

We should think about perhaps some form of vetting as part of the entry process for new comers.

Sort of like submitting a CV type thing or something??

As part of you application for your log book if you are a new entrant, you have to have a signature for your club captain to say you have been an active member of your club and they have seen you partake in at least 1 club run and you have some idea about driving off road........

Something other than having to run the nanner class for an event at least

There is a lot of talk about club class trucks and how do you work out which truck can stay in club or move to a different class.

I feel it un fair to say to any one, You need to go to a different class you keep wining or your truck might be too good.

This is just an idea and might need more input from you guys, but this is what I think might help set the truck rules.

I have worked out what the challenge trucks have in the way of mods and what a std truck would come out of the factory with.

The idea is done with point for each mod you add to your truck and when you get to 500 mod points you then go to a different class.

A One diff lock =50 points

B Second diff lock=50 points

C One mod to winch=50 points air/cable free spool

D Second mod to winch=50 points drum mod

E Suspension up grade =50 points up to 65mm spring lift

F Change suspension mounting=50 points per diff

G Shocks =50 points longer and larger or extra chocks

H Change the induction system=50 points

I Add NOS =50 points

J Cut cab down =50 points change full cab to a single cab

K Diff mods =50 points strengthen / shave

L Upgrade Cvs=50 points

M Guard mods =50 points cut guards to fit larger tyres

N 35+inch tires =50 points

O Bead locks =50 points

P Move diffs from OME =50 points

Q Engine up grade=50 points any thing larger than STD

R fit extra batters =50 points more the STD amount

S Radiator mods = 50 points

T Pto hydro winch=50 points

U body lift or lower=50 points

V Change to different gear box/auto=50 points

W

X

Y

Z

No points for any safety equipment, could look at taking points of for full cage????

If I was to set up a club truck I could buy a Toyota or a Nissan or my Suzuki I all ready have and with this list I could mod to suit my budget

If it came out with an Lsd in rear I would keep it in or take the points and add the rear diff lock

I would add front diff lock =50

I would add rear diff lock =50

I would free spool winch and upgrade motor =100

I would put in after market springs 65 mm lift =50

Up grade shocks =50

Fit 32inch tires =00

Fit 4 point roll cage =00

Fit 4 point belts =00

Fit super charger =50

Fit bead lock rims =50

Add extra batteries =50

Finish of the roll cage to 6 point =00

Total 450

With these mods I am still a club class 4x4 and can still drive on the road (still need a low volume cert)

If I was to go into challenge I would add

Bigger engine =50 points

Twin winch motors= 50 points

Coil springs front=50 points

Coil springs in rear=50 points

Wider diffs front=50 points

Wider diff rear=50 points

Lower diff ratio=50 points

Move front diff forward=50 points

Rear diff back =50 points

Cut the back of the well side = 50 points

Fit back up winch =50 points

Fit 35 inch tires =50 points

Fit different gear box=50 points

Total 650 more than club (and all would need Low volumes cert)

There are a few others that could be added to the list of points. Just think what you have on your 4x4 that is not factory.

Think of other 4x4 that are out there, and what you could add, Then work out the points.

E.g. Some Nissans and hilux and land cruisers come out with rear diff lock cool that would save some points but if you change to an air locker the points then get added

Factory ones don’t work as fast and can be electric or vacuum Same goes for the coils there are Pros and Cons Nissan heavy and Toyota lighter and may not twist as well. Suzuki is lighter and can be more nimble.

The REG/WOF is optional in this class and when you reach 500 points you go challenge or Challenge supper modified

The choice is yours

These are just a few things that came to mind and could be changed to suit the class.

What do you think, and keep it clean, no name throwing.

Cheers Klembo

Kool idea

Bit like getting residency in NZ lol...

As it is, just like that, the gap between the most modified and the least modified in club class has the potential to be quite big still??

Think also, safety equipment like cage and harnesses could be changed to be a given. You gotta have em to compete, so they in that grey area of whether are are counted as being a mod or not.

I got/get the impression that Club Class is more being aimed at the more standard vehicles.

The list of what you would do to standard truck is pretty well on the money, apart from the tyres.

Take a Safari for example:

35" tyres = 50

Beadlock rims = 50

Turbo = 50

Suspension Lift (50mm to fit tyres) = 50

Body Lift (50mm to fit tyres) = 50

Cage = 50

Harnesses = 50

Winch Mod's = 50

Tow hooks = 50

Cargo barrier = 50

Diff locks = 100

Snorkel = 50

Total of 650.

Knock out the compulsory safety gear, like the cargo barrier, cage and harnesses, you would have a decent club truck. Not a challenge truck, but a bloody good club truck.

I like the concept but maybe 500 points allows too many mods?
Maybe 400 points is a better level?
Also I think that a factory diff lock should be given points as should factory pto winch.

Klems idea doesn't penalise nor sould there be any penalty for required safety equipment. Rollcage, harnesses, cargo barrier and tow hooks should NOT be counted as mods.
[Modified by: Darin Neeley on November 24, 2009 02:43 PM]