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Oooooooor, your points are used as a handicap for your total score at the event.

Your level of modification was 500 for theSafari.

So its handicapped for the event, starting on -95 points. (just a random number out of the air)

Say it won with 1005 points.

After thehandi cap is taken into consideration, finishes with 900 points. Zook on 29" tyres which finished with 300 points but had the same handicap due to maxing out its 500 point modification limit before bigger tyres could be fitted, finished on 205.

The standard Jeep XJ Cherokee with only a 10 point handi cap, as it was standard apart from a set of tyres, finished 2nd.

Something else comes to mind also.

(hey I'm all good picking this to bits right?? The van's in the work shop so stuck in the office )

Not all vehicles are created equally.

By that I mean, Suzuki's are the best and everything else is just rubbish

So all the other vehicles need to have more work done to them to get them onto an equal playing field with the mighty 2 stroke Suzuki.

For example, as far as club class and winch challenge's are concerned, you need to do more work to a Safari to get it to go places than you would with say a SWB prado.

You can squeeze a set of 35's under a prado with out to much more than spring lift and bump stop extentions.

A Safari requires a body lift or guard chop, spring lift, rear control arm modification, cross member modification, bump stop extentions and a turbo to turn them.

To get 32's under a leaf sprung zook, you need to a gaurd chop, a body lift, a spring lift, a steering box move, move th front axle forward etc etc

Kinda get my drift???

Would find some vehicles soak up their modification points pretty quickly.

No WOF should be a classified as a mod so = 50 points?

See how easy it is to work out the mods required to set any 4x4 up.
where one 4wd needs 3 mods to get bigger tires under it the other might only need 2. but then to get it to move it requires a different diff ratio. More points and at the end of the mods you have done there is very little between each 4wd.
The thing is we all know our 4wd and what we need to keep it going so having a basic list makes it easy to pick which one will be best for me and the bank manager.
I started with 450 points as the bench mark. Could be more or less. Keep thinking about what makes a winch faster what makes the 4wd better in mud on the side of a hill what is the difference, work out the points.
No points against you for safety equipment or the things required to compete with.
I see you picked up very quickly the point . The mods to a zook could be better spent in other places like the winch 200 points just to make the winch faster. Body cut 50 points. spring up grade 100 points diff locks 100 points.
Cheers Klembo

True that.

So what would happen if so and so complained the someone had done "X" to their truck, and it wasn't in our list of Mod's valid for points.

Spose that could all ironed out as it goes.....

i think that point system could be made to work quite well. There are always differences between trucks, eg.nissan and toyota, but a nissan drivetrain is pretty well bulletproof where as a hilux isnt as much, so its swings and round-a-bouts with diff clearance and weight/reliability etc. Essential items like hooks, cage, fire extinguisher etc. shouldn't be part of this proposed system as you must have them to compete, but it leaves alot of variations to different trucks available to suit your current point level and budget. What if your current truck is over the set point limit?? Do you remove items to enable you to remain under the level?
and how would aftermarket cv's be policed? Things like turbo or supercharger upgrades, should they be allocated more than 50 points since they can be of huge benefit to a truck?

Like anything we do there will be a time when someone does something that is outside of the exact rule and someone will have to make a call. I would suggest that there is a clause that defines the intention of the class and then there is an overall person who can then make the call based upon whether the vehicle or crew fits the intention. A case in point could be someone with an existing truck (say Jeremy) that doesn't have the required 6 point cage and wants to compete occasionally. If the handicapping was in place then there is no reason exceptions like that couldn't be made.
The important thing is to ensure everybody is aware of the intention of the class. It was setup to get people involved at a lower level cheaply so that they can progress to a competition level IF they want to. They don't have to progress but if they modify there truck pass a certain point then they MUST step up.
I can see a lot of thing in this will be based around a certain degree of honesty on the competitors part. But upon saying that I think most trucks are either going to be pass or go way past the threshold anyway.

Is this getting over complicated??

Drop the WOF from challenge class and this extra work some people are going to have to do would go away????

Its a solid idea of yours Klem, but how to make it REALY easy to implement and work is the going to be the key issue.

So lets say for the sake of our chat we are all having, that out of us that have been bold enough to voice our opinions for all of NZ to see on this thread at this time, there is strong feeling for 3 class's.

Thats a stark contrast to the equally strong feeling of the 40 or 50 odd voice's at the meeting in Taupo.

There are good reason's for both.

Guess it will come down to a vote at a meeting somewhere, where those that make the effort to attend, will be the one's who get the honor of making the decision.

In order to back up that decision making process, we need to gather some more opinions and thoughts on what sort of vehicles should be catered for in the class's, especially if Klem's point system is going to be considered.

I reckon someone should take it upon them selves to start a thread that discusses Klems idea to start building up an idea of how the points system could work across the class's.

Would save the good stuff in this thread getting lost in the mix

A few more things that could incur points that dont seem out of place compared to some already stated.

changing front diff housing from oem 50 points
changing rear diff housing from oem 50 points
changing transfer case from oem 50 points
also i think V should read change from oem gear box/auto

But the mentioned thresshold of 500 might have to be moved as i cant think of a club truck from Taupo that would go under that figure and i dont really see any of the club trucks from Taupo doing anything but making up numbers in the challenge class as maybe one truck has a winch that really could handle a long muddy bog and he's stepping up anyway.

i quite like the principal but maybe at 500 points needs to be moved. The idea of mods being the same points is a good one as it clean and simple .

But i think to run in club class ie club vehicle you need to be factory from the b pillar forward on the body same as challenge. Obviously you can cut guards to fit tyres but that incurs points in the above system.

my thoughts Scott

Ok The points system Klem suggested is for the entry level class only. There is no need or desire for it to be used anywhere else.
If it is to be used, it would mean that class would have to comply with the spec rules for Challenge (or similar).

What came from the Taupo meeting was that some of the current club guys want to race at a higher level but alot don't have WOF's etc so the current Challenge rules outlaw them. What has come out since then is most of the current Challenge competitors do not want WOF's dropped but some do. That means quite clearly that there is need for 3 classes.

End of story no arguement!

So where to from here? I am sending an email to as many as I have with Klems idea and also a spec for a new class I have put together. The next meeting is on the 13th december in Papakura (South Auckland) where hopefully plenty come along and will have already had plenty of thought and discussion so we can nut out a few last things before setting the rules for next season.

We already know that Challenge rules will not be changing very much at all, maybe a few minor things will change like most years but nothing fundementally will change.
Club class will have more restriction placed upon it to so that the guys at the top currently will have to race in a different class as they are beyond the level of that class already so it isn't fair for those below them and new guys coming in.
The new Modified (or whatever it is called) class will have a spec that allows for current challenge guys who don't want wof's or just want to try something different that challenge doesn't allow and also for the guys in club who can't (or don't want to) go to Challenge.

Lastly. Many of the current club class trucks are better setup up than what we raced in the 2005 Kiwi Challenge, just because in general the Challenge trucks are more modified now doesn't mean you have to be like that to compete. Afterall the truck that won was a flat deck Hilux on leaf springs with a Lexus V8 and a single motor 8274 with a 4.6hp 12v motor. (after the 7.8 died on the second stage)
Under the proposed points system it would be a Club class truck. ie
Front and rear diff locks 100 points.
engine and trans 100
35" tyres and beadlocks 100
spring lift and shocks 100
extra battery 50
So under Klems system you could build Flufee and be under 500 points. This is the truck that from 2004 to 2007 won more events than EVERY other truck put together and you think the rules are too tough??????????????????????

Darrin,

I dont know the truck you are talking about but i bet it had

auto free spool 50 points,
change of induction system fuel inj 50 points,
guard mods to fit tyres 50 points,
radiator mod 50 points

As i say i dont know the truck but cant fit 35,s to a standard truck with a lift so that puts it in your new class of super modified .
So i guess it does not fit aye. Scott

I'm talking about Owen Fillery's Hilux.
It didn't have a freespool, it had standard Lexus intake and the guards were standard. The radiator may have been changed and that would have put it to 500 points only.
Anyone could copy this truck and it would be a very very capable truck, with the addition of a pto winch instead of electric I bet it would be a podium placer in Challenge AND still be within club class points limit.
I was talking to Owen about it a couple of weeks ago and that you can build something very good without the money if you are smart and don't want to go fast. It is the speed that costs NOT 4x4 ability.

My point is, a very capable 4x4 doesn't need massive amounts of mods, if you make these mods then you shouldn't be competing against standard trucks.

How many mods does Larry have?
35's =50
front and rear lockers = 100
freespool =50
battery = 50
motor change but still factory (i think) so = 0
shocks and spring (what size?)

I can see where you are coming from with your truck. You've done a heap of mods but it is still on 32's. But you are consistently competing in a group where 2 have 32's and the other 3 have 35's.

Here's what I would build under that rule.

Flatdeck Hilux
Coil overs = 100 (but only 50mm lift)
link suspension = 100
V8 and auto = 100
35's = 50
pto winch = 50
radiator = 50
lsd rear diff = 0
locker front = 50

500 points and that would be a light, very fast simple truck.

Heres a different example....

Nissan GQ SWB

VH45 = 50points
Front and rear difflocks = 100points
35's = 50points
PTO winch = 50points
Chrome moly cvs = 50points
Guard cut = 50points

Think thats all,
I would be more than happy to race that in club class, and you would be still able to move up to challenge class if you felt the need.

Ahhhh, you missed out the mods required for the 35's, and the bead locked rims, so could be possibly another 150 right there.

I guess thats the point of the other thread, work out what to include or what not to.

Reckon that truck would be awesome fun in club class

You can fit 35's on a Safari with standard suspension height if you cut the guards and as long as you stay above about12psi tubes will hold 35's on anyway.

I've just been talking to Scott and there is differing interpretations of this idea so we need to really make sure we are talking the same way. I see it as being pretty liberal so 50mm lift etc is NOT a mod. Others are seeing it as change anything and you get a penalty. I think we need to be very clear we aren't trying to setup a production class, far from it. So it is to make it simple and understandable.
Jump on the new thread and post your thoughts there so we can clarify this.

Quote Darin Neeley:

I'm talking about Owen Fillery's Hilux.
It didn't have a freespool, it had standard Lexus intake and the guards were standard. The radiator may have been changed and that would have put it to 500 points only.
Anyone could copy this truck and it would be a very very capable truck, with the addition of a pto winch instead of electric I bet it would be a podium placer in Challenge AND still be within club class points limit.
I was talking to Owen about it a couple of weeks ago and that you can build something very good without the money if you are smart and don't want to go fast. It is the speed that costs NOT 4x4 ability.

My point is, a very capable 4x4 doesn't need massive amounts of mods, if you make these mods then you shouldn't be competing against standard trucks.

How many mods does Larry have?
35's =50
front and rear lockers = 100
freespool =50
battery = 50
motor change but still factory (i think) so = 0
shocks and spring (what size?)

I can see where you are coming from with your truck. You've done a heap of mods but it is still on 32's. But you are consistently competing in a group where 2 have 32's and the other 3 have 35's.

Here's what I would build under that rule.

Flatdeck Hilux
Coil overs = 100 (but only 50mm lift)
link suspension = 100
V8 and auto = 100
35's = 50
pto winch = 50
radiator = 50
lsd rear diff = 0
locker front = 50

500 points and that would be a light, very fast simple truck.

Front Diff would need to go forward 30mm to get full lock and you would need to fit a gear box that a hilux does not come out with 50 points each. It is such an easy system.

I just worked it out, This is on line build a truck its real easy and a lot cheaper than the real thing.LOL

There seams to be a lot of going back a forward at the moment and not a lot of direction.
There is 4 types of trucks in our future
Club (entry level truck does not mind body damage has WOF/REG)
Club plus(Had body damage cut panels off cant get WOF/REG)
Challenge(modified to the rules repairs body damage WOF/REG)
Challenge plus(Cut damage off modified above WOF rules)

If we wish to go out side these 4x4 types we end up with a class for each truck.

We have 1 set of rules and they are challenge class with small mods to suit club class. I think you all would agree there.
There is no reason why the two types of 4x4 can't join as A / B in each class e.g. club and club plus etc
We are all red/hot blooded and wont to win so as you get faster and better You and only you decide which class you wish to progress to.

The idea with the club class was an entry in to challenge "Type" tracks and competition and was soon pushed by the way and now the rules are being pushed and the very trucks that it was set up for have been squeezed out. WOF gone and the trucks only just look like there model or year (half doors half cabs)

Club class needs the guy with a WOF. He/she feel that the 4x4 in there shed could do the same track as you or I.Challenge rules 10 point mods etc (that's how we all get in to this)
Club class plus is for the guy/gal found a old 4x4 under the tree Rego run out has a gas set and a welder thinks I can do it better challenge cab rules 10 point mods (drives a Suzuki go any where 4x4)

Challenge class has rules and we all know them.

Challenge plus same cab rules same safety rules remove the WOFstandard and lets see what happens (mixed cab chassis drop axles to name a few)

For the track setters it makes it easy track 1 and track 2 and this is what we do now.

To make it easy a came up with the points system only for the club class, it is real easy to under stand and any one can pick a 4x4 and decide what is in there budget and what will make there 4x4 go better.

The tire size thing???? There are people coming up with 32 on a hilux is same as 35 on a Nissan a Suzuki on same as bla bla bla Bla. Get over it.
It is all about diff clearance and if you can turn the wheels. We should get out the tape and measure the diff height and give it a size from the diff head to the ground on a flat surface. That way every one can have the same clearance.

Problem solved and the 37 inch tire might be able to come and play when I put the 10 inch diff under my truck (a lot cheep parts and different ratio to chose from 4.1 to 6.9 and more).

Better still let in drop axles and lower the 36.5 down to 31 inch and it will be cheaper as well. and there is lots of tires out there in that size.

There is lots of thing that can be done to the rules in each class.Please don't over rule the other classes."KIS4S" Keep It Simple (4 the) Stupid.
AND if you have a WOF you can go in any class there is no stand down time between classes.

Moved - wrong subject
[Modified by: Justin Williams on December 10, 2009 03:37 PM]

Right "Flame suit on " I have given this some more thought and think the proposed changes are a mistake,all we are going to do is create a group of trucks that dont fit in any class .If we take for example Bernie"s ,Glens and Marty:s trucks these are pretty well up there on the point system along will quite a few others (it doesnt matter what level the points are set at their still up there ) are we going to say sorry your to modified and have to move up to this new class where they could be racing against trucks right out of MAD MAX where they Wont be modified enough to be competitive and will feel their only there to make up the numbers. to me thats not right and well start loosing competitors .Why not leave things as they are with club class as its pretty self regulating ,we can just look at previous placings and introduce a handicap system if youve consistantly placed in the top 3 .leave challenge as is .with the New ( Super modified) any thing goes as discussed but allow 37 inch tyres (in that class only) that will allow a new sponsor in and allow trucks to trial and compare tread,makes etc any thoughts...