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Hey Steve. I think we are all aware of what you say as a likely outcome for that class. The intention as I understand it is to do the same that has occured with the club class. Left it run with a broad rule base, then if it ends up, like club class has, with 2 groups of trucks (seriously mad max, and those that dont fit club class) then a 4th class may be introduced, for the not so modded but not club class compliant. Hope that sort of makes sense, and the theory was that at the moment we dont have the mad max stuff but need somewhere for the overly modded Club Class vehicles to go, as well as cater for those in challenge that may wnat to do rear rads, drop their WOF or what ever. A bit of a trial run for a year and then re assess.

Personally I think that if it is managed correctly it will grow the numbers as it is going to allow the guys with heavily modded trucks to compete but not to the detrement of those running more standard vehicles in club class, and may end up building sufficent numbers to go to a fourth in betweeen class.

A certianly agree that the 37s should be in, at least in super modified. Not that they will fit on the zuk the 33s barely fit.

Hi Dan ,my main concern is that if we get trucks like Johnno:s truck (the one from the drink add) and even to a point Darins new truck which are both very well engineered well set up trucks and even Mike and Tony"s "shermin" what sort of chance do the top club class trucks stand ,Quite bluntly NONE .the fun will soon go out of it after getting their asses kicked comp after comp .and if we start loosing people it will be hard to get them back .As we wont be catering for the "super modified ) at the next Norwest and im pretty sure Rotorua wont either (land acsess problems) we are going to introduce a handicap system at Norwest and see how it works out .at present we are open to any thoughts on this .we are thinking along the lines of .If you placed in the top 3 in your previous comp you will start with a 100 point handicap .that makes it wide open for most trucks .also even with the handicap as we are running approx 18 stages it could be made up if you place consistantly well .As i have said many times its your guys comp ,it would be really helpfull if we got some feed back on what you guys want .are we thinking along the same lines or or are we off in completly the wrong direction ...steve

Firstly, I agree with what you are saying Steve, but at present we have a problem. We need to sort out the club class and until that is done how can we do something to cater for those that don't comply when you don't know who they are or what the trucks are? How do you make a second rule when the first hasn't been set?

I would say that we will end up with 4 classes but we need to get the second class (being club class) sorted and THEN set the class above that.

For a while people have been talking about having an Outlaw class so the easiest way to ensure everyone CAN keep racing is to set the max level of mods and then draw a line somewhere below that for the forth class.

Something that has been suggested and could be a good way of doing it is to set 2 levels with the Klem system. The first would be club and is what we are doing at present and the second would be for those in between. The problem is, until we know what the first level is how do we set the second? As discussed on Sunday we need as many club class guys to tell us what they have done so we can set a fair level that matches the intention of the class. It could be as simple as saying club class is 400 points and modified class is 700 points. Then Challenge would be unlimited and the Super modified class would be unlimited.

BUT how will we know until people do what the say they will to help us run the sport.

So Club class guys, send us your mod list so we can get step one finished and thn we can do step 2. STOP worrying about step 2 or step 1 will never happen.

Quote stephen reed:

Hi Dan ,my main concern is that if we get trucks like Johnno:s truck (the one from the drink add) and even to a point Darins new truck which are both very well engineered well set up trucks and even Mike and Tony"s "shermin" what sort of chance do the top club class trucks stand ,Quite bluntly NONE .

I think the issue is summed up in your first line "IF" at the moment these guys aren't racing. Darins truck is realistically not going to be on the tracks before close to the end of the season, from what I hear Shermin would be for sale at the right money, (read lots $$$$) not sure about Johnno. If we get them and there is that split within the class that can be addressed IF/WHEN it occurs. (as has been done in club class) The fact that there has been a few trucks with a clear advantage in the current club class (which is pretty open for mods really) has not driven any body away but by the sounds prevented a few from starting. By letting these few trucks move up a level will address this, should the new class get big enough with that divide then sort it, why try to sort an issue that does not exist?

I applaud you for trying to run a handicap system. I have been involved with that sort of thing for years with yachting and never got my head around it. To be fair doing it on the last race result is not that fair, have a mare in a capable truck one event and win the next, it really needs to be based on the capablity of the vehicle, not past performance, which is where it gets complicated, remembering that there are very few one off yachts but most of the vehicles racing are custom. Not trying to knock it just trying to add some experience to the mix.

I think Klem's points system and the handicap system are all great idea's, but just two dam hard to put into practice for a bunch of dude's that would rather be out driving their trucks

KISS

To separate the class's, use simple, tangable and easily measured/recognised items for differentiation.

Restrict winch's

Restrict tyre size

That should do it.

Class 1 runs max 33" tyres and standard winch's.

Class two runs max 35" tyres and certain winch mod's.

Class 3 runs 37" tyres open winch's and must be road legal.

All current 4x4 challenge's rules must be adhered to.

If you enter class 1 with diff locks, factory or not, you get a 50 point handicap per traction aid.

Hi guys I think there is merit in a lot of the above. Darins point spread with the "klem system" (maybe with a few more adjustments) for the now 4classes is a good one due to the fact that i would'nt like to race my truck up againts Darin or Johno not just because of the major differences in the trucks but the experience in driving. At the meeting on sunday we decided to email our truck specs to darin so they can see what acccual differences there are betwen the trucks to see if the "klem system" (sorry klem this ones stuck) would work.
I think Steves idea of a handicap from the top 3 from the last race is great and makes it more of a fair competion for all the drivers, maybe check the points just to make sure its fair to everyone and does'nt rule out the top 3 from the last race.
Re the tyres we should stay with max 36.5" because there are a few that run these and to be true there is'nt much diference betwen 35s and 36s in overal size, as far as the supermodified class run what ever you like i can see this becoming a tuff truck senario

The whole idea of changing club class was to make the racing closer.So why are we making the next class so open with new chasis rules etc?you want close racing 200 points using the system for club class.400/500 points for club modified.either change your truck to suit or now we do have a need for 4 classes.

Personally i want some rules to know what mods i can do to suit a class and not have the goal post shifted at the end of the year to suit some truck that aint buit.I took from the meeting that the chasis mods you were talking about were outside the intent of the rules for challenge class so hence outside the intent of rules for club class also ,the next thing i hear ther is ther is some new rule about half chasis vehicles in club modified look around there ant no vehicles that require this change or at least there shouldnt be in club class so why are we making concessions.

Thats my thoughts, there you go guys i said what alot of you are thinking and not saying.
ps i would have to change my truck to suit also depending on points and what class because it aint no super modified vehicle.

Cheers SCott

As far as I'm aware we are trying to sort out 3 classes imediately.
Challenge is there and is not being changed.
The Super modified class has had an upper limit set.
Club class has system decided upon but the limits aren't set.
And a forth class above club class has been identified as being needed but can't been set until Club is sorted so there is no timeframe other than after club class.

So far the only person who has sent me anything to do with their mods so that we can set a limit for club class is Dan. If everyone else stopped worrying about things that haven't happened and put pen to paper for the things we asked for then we CAN set a limit. Then you wouldn't be worried about what the limits are as you will know.

If people get off their arses and help out then we will have all 4 classes setup ready for next year. If they just moan and complain it isn't done or happening then IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

As for the Super modified class. All that has happened is formal rule will be introduced to set the upper limit of what we think winch challenge truck should be. Nothing more, it isn't a replacement for Challenge class. We have made this an OPTION for event organisers to use as a class.

Scott if you are so keen to get the forth class sorted then we can arrange it for you to officially become part of the rules comittee for the rules review. This was made possible at the AGM and for this purpose. BUT the classes will be set to promote the sport and encourage people to race not to suit the needs of one person building a truck. The development of the Super modified class means pretty much anyone with a production type truck will be able to race somewhere. No one is excluded within reason. No one currently racing will be stopped racing.
I am the first to acknowledge that the club class has been the best thing to happen to the sport in many years and we need to provide a fair progression from there to an umlimted level if people so chose to progress. We also need to ensure we have robust systems so that event organisers are happy to cater for all classes and don't have addition work load or liability placed upon them. We need to prove that a non WOF truck is safe and it is worthwhile catering for. It isn't as simple as saying "here's a new class". Think of it this way, if we don't set the class up right and no one runs an event catering for it, then you will have built a truck for no use.

I to are a little surprised at the so called “mad max class” shoved in with the upper end of club class (or what ever it will be called) at the same time, I do understand the need for it in the future and I do understand what Darin and others are saying, why are we worried about something that has not happened yet. The main thing is everyone is aware that it could (and probably will) happen at some stage, and it was made clear that it will be dealt with in the same fashion as club class when it does. One thing it has done, (for me anyway) is open up a whole new way of thinkin, and I’m not sure if that is such a bad thing.
The other side of the coin is. I was fully prepared to make the changes needed and step over to Challenge class possibly by the middle to end of next year, now that mad max is a possibility, who knows, I am one hacksaw cut away from making that decision. How many others have or will have the same thoughts?
As for handicap racing. I to have fallen victim of this many years ago in boat racing, could not get my head around it then ether. One thing I do remember thinkin was, it seemed like a form of punishment for the guys up front and gave no incentive for the guys behind.
My vote, is to put it where the sun is unlikely to shine.
The “Klem System” is a great idea, it gives you multiple choice and that cannot be a bad thing.
Just my thoughts
Bernie.

Quote Bernie Konz:

now that mad max is a possibility, who knows, I am one hacksaw cut away from making that decision.

Go on you know you want to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think of it as a weight loss, flexibility wok out for the truck.

Why the talk about 4 classes?? At the end of the meeting on 13th there were 3 classes, challenge and club split into 2 using the Klem system at a point yet to be determined. There was no 'upper limit' as there is currently no 'upper limit', but the existing rules apply. Like Peter said, KISS. There was near universal support for the Klem system, so lets run with it. Instead of dreaming up ways to get an advantage over everyone else email you mods to Darin so the committe can sort out where the club class division is.

Klem, does a Rego and WOF mean points off as they are a disadvantage?

It is very important that after a meeting, a written summary is done, noting all of the important outcome's of the meeting.

With out this the meeting was pointless as everyone that attended will have a different version of what the outcome's were.......

We will all still be discussing the same issues on the forum with out getting anywhere.

The reason for the meeting was to make some head way on these issue's.

Can someone post up a summary of the findings/conclusions of the meeting??

Or was there a shift in sentiment to keep the discussion of the forum for the rest of the process??

Cheers'
Pete.
[Modified by: Peter Hall on December 22, 2009 12:52 PM]

Hi Guys

Any news on when the rules for the classes will be placed on the forum.

Thanks
Glen

Glen, I've got the thumbscrews on the team and with luck there will be something shortly!

Peter

Waiting!!!! waiting!!!! will these class rules be in place for next year???

cheers
Glen

This is quite long now and encompasses many directions and ideas. So back to basics.

we need an extra class to separate the club trucks. It seems to me the classes should be quite easy (not so easy to define the exact rules)

CLUB CLASS. True club trucks. My old mans hilux with 33's and a winch, weather or not it has a wof, maybe an engine transplant when the diesel dies. Gets used as a daily driver, goes off road on club trips, and is keen to give this winch challenge thing a nudge.

CHALLENGE. all ready well defined. Tim's cruiser axled, lexus powered, hydraulic winched hilux. Gets used to drive to club events, but is built for offroad and has had time spent on it.

DEDICATED CLUB. Some times expensive, sometimes built with bits lying around. Always very capable, bits that break are cut off, replaced with tube. Gets used exclusivley for off raod play time, these builders do not want the expense and limits off being road legal but do require a tow rig for every outing.

I think Challenge is well defined and is not being discussed here (but keep the bloody WOF)

Club class is being discussed and should be the breeding ground for progression. It was sposed to be a play center that helped you get in to challenge class. We let non-WOF vehicles play here and these vehicles were never really going to end up in challenge class. We need a class for these capable dedicated off road vehicles to play.

So what we need is a club class for people who have multi use vehicles that want to give whinch challenges a go. We then need a class for the likes of Dan and Bernie who have capable, offroad dedicated vehicles who want to play hard, but cant be bothered with a WOF or werent built with the idea of ever having a WOF.

If a challenge class truck wants to, it could enter the dedicated class to.

For me its this simple. CHALLENGE, iconic winch trucks.
CLUB, lets give this a go.
DEDICATED, what are we doing with our offroad monster this weekend?

I'm pretty sure this covers every body. Challenge and Dedicated would obviously have 6 point cages, club would likely only have 4 point cages. You can more or less enter what ever you want so long as you meet the safety standards, although Club trucks would sometimes be told it is time to put a 6 point cage in and move up. Maybe the only performance limit on a club truck would be no mega winches, but the vh45 nissan that Tim mentioned earlier is a realistic club truck and should not be told it cant enter club class.

Thoughts?

Arron.

Challenge isn't changing as the guys in it want it tp stay as it is. The WOF has been seen as fundamental to the class so is staying. However there are plenty more out there who have / are building trucks to a similar level that don't have WOF's and they WILL be catered for. Right or wrong this will most likely affect Challenge.

The draft rules that have been posted are the basis of what will be implemented. What we need is feedback about specific changes that need to be made. So far we have gone around and around in circles because everyone has been talking concepts. Well it's time a line is drawn in the sand and people stand up to it. Club Class will not survive with the current variation. Having the same truck win time after time because it is effectively in a different class isn't good and must be sorted.

So have your say, as now is the time. Say nothing and we will implement what we think you want.

Should the super modified be unrestricted with chassis mods? Is it a better idea to allow mods for wheel travel and suspension but otherwise maintain factory shape and width?

Quote Darin Neeley:

Having the same truck win time after time because it is effectively in a different class isn't good and must be sorted.

Have you not had a different winner in the last 3 comps in club class?

We aren't discussed what is needed as that has been beaten to death already but rather the finer points of the how. The consensus for the extra classes was reached a long time ago so now lets get some feedback on the classes. No feedback means that are 100% right and wil over have some small changes where we have found conflicts.