Forum

Whats the state of play with the national series so far?
I'd like to see a North Island series of say 3 or 4 events, and the same in the South, with a massive 4 or 5 day national final run in each island in alternating years. This gives competitors who want do do it all a packed year and also allows those who want to spend less and do only a few events on their own patch. To keep costs down a bit, running each islands events consecutively would me you could leave your truck in each island to save on the ferry trips. I think this is what Donald and Roger did this year. Points for each islands championship would have no impact on the nat final, You start from zero at the nats and it carries no points towards the islands champs either. But make it as tough as fawk, kinda like the Outback Challenge in Oz. You would probably have to say that to be eligible for entry in the nats, you must compete in two of the four events in the other island, or maybe a total of say 6 events altogether with at least one event in the other island.
Ok bring on the replies!...:)

Cheers
Jafa

PS this would require a consistent set of rules over both islands

Thanks for those thoughts Trevor. For 2007 the national series has concluded as of Rotorua. That was agreed by the competitors attending the 4x4 Challenges NZ meeting there.

Future national series compositions will depend on where we can find people and places to run events. That's where this forum will be useful we hope...to identify who's willing to work with 4x4 Challenges NZ to organise challenges.

Right now the list for 2008 stands at one, an indication from Darin for a Whangarei event.

The North / South concept has merit but it may yet be a year or so away as we grow this process gradually. Of course this whole thing depends on money again, as if 4x4 Challenges NZ is to be in a position to monitor standards and assist organisers, then there's usually travel involved, especially North/South.

Some suggestions for funding those sort of costs have been presented at 4x4 Challenge meetings but nothing concrete has been agreed.

Peter

The Rules would need a revamp as many of the south island trucks wouldn't pass scruteenering under the north island rules with regard to roll cages especially in the club mans class (32 inch class).

This is why one of the reasons we have written new rules for the South Island.

I am sure it is possible for us to come up with a true national series if we all put our heads together and we are all prepared to make compremises.

Thanks Scott, the problem is that the southern people haven't talked to us although we've been around for 3 years now as 4x4 Challenges. There's invariably room for compromise in structuring rules but most 4x4 Challenges concerns have been around safety and trying to avoid major changes to how vehicles appear to the public( along with keeping costs down) . The existing rules don't stop the creation of classes by organisers. The only rules that might affect lesser levels of vehicle preparation might be the roll cage and the internal barrier. Both could be changed by agreement but there also needs to be a recognition that courses need to reflect the lower protection levels to competitors. The rollover at Timaru showed the risk of course design .

So far, under the winch challenge rules that have been developed, and we've used, since 2000, there have been no significant injuries to anyone during competition and that's how we'd like things to continue. 4x4 Challenges NZ are a NZFWDA club and have the benefit of the great insurance cover that the NZFWDA have organised but none of us want to be spending time in Court or apologising to families for something that need not have happened.

There's a rule review for 2008 underway now, so if people want to suggest changes then do it quickly.

rules@4x4challenges.org.nz

While I'm a part of 4x4 Challenges, I don't think everything done by it are exactly right, but at present it is the best option out there to maintian rules, keep consistency and manage a series. What is being done in the SI is great and we can only wish that there was that much support up here.
I think first and foremost I think we need to ensure the old problems associated with the NZFWDA are brought into this sport. At present the biggest reason for being apart of it is the insurance.
One way of making 4x4 Challenges the right body is to enable everyone in the country easy access to decision making. It should be that people don't to be in Auckland to be apart of the decision making process. I drive for 2 hours to get there and some guys come similar distances but the reality is that guys in the SI can not get o Auckland for meeting and shifting the meetings isn't really going to enable a true representation of those involved. A forum like this enables easy comunication over long distances. Add to that the ability to run polls and then you have discussion and decision making ability which is all we need to get things so that they suit most people. Obviously everyone will not be happy with what is done, but what is important is that the majority of competitors gt on board.
If someone has another idea then lets hear it so that something can be done.
We went through a lot of similar discussion this time last year and decided that the way foward was to get involved with 4x4Ch and make that represent the competitors wishes. I still think that is the way foward because there's no viable alternative. If there is one, what is it and lets get going?

While i think that the National series is a good idea,It seems to me that it is not a true reflection of the teams out there,The cost of South Island teams to come over and compete is prohibitive Just ask Donald or Rodger.Why dont we have the South island do there series and the north do theres and a final between say the top 6 or 7 trucks from each and alternate it between Islands each year..Just a thought

There's no reason not to have parallel series in the North and South as Stephen suggests, we just need to try and be working from the same rule book. Rules are there to limit things like competition costs and to provide a reasonably level playing field. They also cover the safety issues that organisers must have in place these days.

The rules are there to simplify managing the way competing vehicles are presented. The change to a compliance system using a log book and an audit of the vehicle to that logbook specification was something pushed by competitors, but so far there's been a slow uptake. The principle is to have the vehicle road going compliant as shown by WOF and certification plate (if needed) and also matching the logbook information. An audit of those checks may be done by the organisers.

Darin, you suggest that there should be wider input to 4x4 Challenge decisions but I point to the requests for thoughts on rules for 2008 and the low level of response. Maybe people are largely happy with the existing rules? ( hopefully they are).

We can run surveys quite simply if required, possibly in this public forum or else through email survey systems that are available.

If you've got some matters that you wish to raise then let 4x4 Challenges know and we'll run a test survey.

I'm trying to see if there is a way that everyone can be involved in the decisions and not just those that can get to Auckland for meetings. Getting the SI involved can only be good as can getting the lower NI involved. At present it is called a National series but that is like the US having all their World Series events. If you don't try and include everyone then it isn't really a true test. At present something isn't working as the comps aren't happening. 6 or 7 comps can only be dreamed about. Everyone can only do what they can do but is it politics that are stopping people getting involved or apathy?
I don't really care why the SI is using seperate rules as that isn't the point. Getting ONE set of rules and regs is. They have developed some rules and regs and are running comps which is great. I think the important thing is to work together to make it work.
If the the politics mean a new neutral body is needed to run the sport for the whole country then that is what we should do. If people take offence to the suggestion that 4x4 challenges may not have it right, too bad as I care about MY sport not an organisation.
In Oz they have the CCDA, 4x4challenges has the chance to do a similar thing and that should be a target, but to do that more than the same dozen people need to get involved. The people who turn up have the best intentions and can only act upon what is in front of them. A series is happening which is great but how do we move foward from that? More than 2 comps for next year is a big start.
I have no idea where to get the rules that the SI is using, but I'd like to see them and see what is different. If it is all safety related ands the standards are lower than what we have then there is no way that can work. But if we are talking vehicle specs, comps rules etc then we all need to make some compromises. I don't care how long our rules have been around or how much time was put into them, if they need to be changed to include those that are racing then lets do it!!!!!!!!
4x4 challenges is the best option for running the sport that I could find which is why I got involved with it, if things need to change then lets change them.

Hi Guys

I'm from the South Island (Or more comminly known as New Zealand) and will be attending the meating in Feb for the SI rounds.
Don't get your nickers in a twist, we are not planing to compleatly redo the rules or anything close, the big boys class will pritty much remain the same, the clubmans class will be looked at with budget and safety in mind.
The Timaru round was built aimed towards the spectaitor, which is where we get new compeditors from, and with out spectaitors there would be no sponsors!!!!! I compeated in Timaru and my hat is off to the Colin's for a bloody great event.
We all need more spectatiiors or there would be no groth in the sport.
I also do Off Road Racing, and we run a 7 round series, 3 in the north, 3 in the south and a final alternating between islands each year.
The way this is structured if you start in the north, then you stay there till the final, no crossing the ditch, this way you only cross once for the final keeping costs down and making the final a bigger event.

Cheers
Rick

Hi Rick, thanks for the update on SI ideas. The present scenario in the North is for three events starting with the Norwest Challenge and finishing probably in Oct with a major event that's being worked on.

The revised rules2008 package was delayed by our rules manager, John Walker, heading overseas during December but there are no major changes planned as I understand. Essentially the basic rules package should cover most situations of a winch challenge and yet leaves room for organisers to use supplementary rules to cover local situations.

Peter Vahry

Scott Gorrie writes" many south Island trucks would not pass scrutineering under north island rules" If its roll cages thats simple, put roll cages in your race cars because thats what they are. Where do you get a copy of the south island rules from anyway ?? I would like to enter a few events down that way if my entry was accepted.

I had a good look at the rules that was used last year and they are basically 4x4 Ch rules with a few things taken out so we can compete down there and will just be safer.

A quote from the Off Road Express forum from the "Top of the South" winch challenge organisers...

We're planning to do it all again over Queens Birthday weekend 31 May - 2 June. A winter event will make the tracks a bit more difficult, and ensure the fire risk isn't a problem. The plan is to have a couple of night stages on the Saturday, then the main event all day Sun. Mon for repairs & travel home.

Rick, if you could let us know the details of the SI meeting in Feb, there is a good chance that a 4x4 Challenge NZ representative would be wiling to attend. If you don't wish to post here email me at info@4x4challenges.org.nz

will be going to the top of the south winch challenge hopefully
to enter but do not think the truck will be ready so will properly marshal

would be good to see some competitors from up north as so far there has been no one to give
Bruce Hughes a good run for it
that is if he is coming up this year

think it is still more of a learning year for most of the si events
[Modified by: james keys on January 24, 2008 08:50 PM]

Another event is soon to be added to the list for 2008. More info here.... http://4x4challenges.org.nz/news/48

It would be great to see a good south island contingent up here in the North, so get practising and come up here and show the north islanders how it's done in the main land. I'll see you there ;)